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Old 05-12-2018, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
24,370 posts, read 30,711,143 times
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Toronto as a city will most definitely draw more than enough francophone and francophile students to fill that university's classes.

The real question is what the real impact of all of that will be on the francophone community in the city, in the province of Ontario and in Canada.

On the one hand it would be cool to have a larger, established flourishing francophone community in Canada's biggest city. It's kind of weird that the francophone community's size in sheer numbers in Toronto is in the same ballpark as that of places like Sudbury and Moncton... considering the relative size of those two cities vs. Toronto's.

On the other hand my sense based on my experience is that the university will only have a marginal impact on francophone vitality in the GTA, and serve mostly as a way-station for francophones largely from other horizons (elsewhere in Canada or foreign countries) on their way to their "final destinations" which are likely to be a) post-assimilation "anglo" life in the GTA with only a smidgen of residual French in their lives, or b) adult life in a more francophone milieu, likely Montreal or somewhere in Quebec.
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Old 05-12-2018, 08:54 AM
 
518 posts, read 255,384 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I don't see things in as fatalistic terms as y'all do. I think if the university attracts a variety of French students from all walks of life and from inside the Province, the country and internationally it will bring French students together in an environment that is incredibly diverse. They can actually share their culture with the people of Toronto who have always been welcoming to different people. French people from Quebec, Africa and Europe would be no different. Just like our Jamaicans, Indians, Flips, Chinese, Portuguese, hispanics etc etc etc - we will love them and accept them. I think this university will attract many from Toronto who want to learn and absorb the French language and various French cultures. I mean, Ottawa is right across the border from Quebec - they have limitless opportunities - just like cross the bridge - duh! However the thought of bringing French into a more prominent role in our largest and most diverse city connected to not just Quebec but the world seems very appealing. Whoever factored Toronto as the lead city was definitely visionary and sees the big picture.
I presume it will advertise itself as a FLU in a city with an impressive francophone minority and massively overstate its francophone character and people are going to buy into it for various reasons.
Unfortunately, I also have to blame the Francophonie (the international organization of the French world) for this state of affairs as it grossly fails to accurately represent and portray the French-speaking world, they overzealously generalize and label countries as francophone, even if the quasi totality isn't francophone at all - for the Francophonie a small number of francophones within a country is already enough to qualify as francophone. Unfortunately, their representations of what is francophone have made into mainstream science and, beyond that, into common knowledge within the core countries of the francophonie.

For example, here is a wikipedia statement:
"French is spoken as a first language (in descending order of the number of speakers) in France, Canadian provinces of Quebec, Ontario and New Brunswick as well as other Francophone regions, Belgium (Wallonia and Brussels), western Switzerland (cantons of Bern, Fribourg, Geneva, Jura, Neuchâtel, Vaud, Valais), Monaco, parts of the United States (Louisiana, Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont), and by various communities elsewhere." A reader, unacquainted with the real linguistic situations in these countries, instantly gets the impression that Ontario and Louisiana are francophone, as they are mentioned in the same lines along with France. 1% or 2% is enough to count as francophone - I find this shocking and deem this to be an unacceptable scientific misrepresentation, but this is how it is coommonly done and how the Francophonie has been doing it for decades now. The Francophonie abuses the lacking knowledge of people in the western world about African countries, to portray them as "fully francophone", even if 85% of it's population can't speak French at all and less than 2% is native French. Also, the Francophonie portrays Vietnam as francophone and Canada in general as French and as bilingual... No surprise French still think that French is a global language...That's what the Francophonie is telling them and it's tempting to believe it.

So if the FLU will advertise itself als a university within an impressive French environment, some students will be unsure, but they will check the Francophonie's info which will them them "Yes! Ontario is French-speaking! Canada is bilingual!", which is only going to confirm what the FLU in Toronto will have said. Of course, not every student is going to believe that Toronto has a significant, impressive French minority, though especially in African countries where they do not know English, they cannot double-check information and will buy into the FLUs misleading representation. These students will come to the FLU in Toronto, expecting a French environment, and they will be utterly disappointed to find out that Toronto is totally English and French plays no role outside of their instruction, that French will just be one of over 150 migrant languages.

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 05-12-2018 at 09:07 AM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 09:41 AM
 
1,293 posts, read 2,307,476 times
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I don't understand why some people have hard time to aklowegle that there are many French speaking people in Africa.
French hatred maybe?
Racism (can't imagine that non-white people could speak French)?

You can go in Senegal and in Tunisia with Google street view.
Almost every shops and every adverts are in French in Senegal.
Even in Tunisia where there is a big official language Arabic, French is very present.

Unlike what QuebecOpec claims Francophonie uses a scientific approch to define who is French speaking.
They don't include everyone and they don't consider Vietnam as a French speaking country.
Being part of the francophonie organisation doesn't mean that you are a French speaking country.
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,893 posts, read 12,373,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
You can go in Senegal and in Tunisia with Google street view.
Almost every shops and every adverts are in French in Senegal.
Even in Tunisia where there is a big official language Arabic, French is very present.

Unlike what QuebecOpec claims Francophonie uses a scientific approch to define who is French speaking.
They don't include everyone and they don't consider Vietnam as a French speaking country.
Being part of the francophonie organisation doesn't mean that you are a French speaking country.
I've actually been to Morocco and Tunisia and French is huge in those countries. Casablanca has some truly remarkable and beautiful French Colonial architecture. Generally speaking the people were friendly and even though i'm an Anglo Canadian who doesn't speak French, they work with you to communicate. If you try and do so even in limited French they most certainly appreciate the effort and will try to teach you. Plus most people don't speak English so it forces you to learn new words and expressions. It was actually a breath of fresh air!

For me, if Toronto attracts more students from French Speaking countries including African it is a benefit. I think also because the city already has a large University/College network the FLU could leverage that in terms of partnerships. I agree with other posters that It won't make a big dent in the GTA in terms of influencing mass numbers of increased French speakers - but it is still a benefit even if it is a small influence. I for one like the option and would even consider taking some evening or weekend courses. I could do that now but i'd also see what they have on offer. It'll make it easier for me on my travels

Last edited by fusion2; 05-12-2018 at 10:50 AM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Toronto
12,893 posts, read 12,373,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
. These students will come to the FLU in Toronto, expecting a French environment, and they will be utterly disappointed to find out that Toronto is totally English and French plays no role outside of their instruction, that French will just be one of over 150 migrant languages.
What you see as disappointment may actually attract a niche for exactly this reason.. It isn't just about immersing yourself in French language and culture, but having the opportunity to be in a place with a huge variety. So maybe outside the classroom they can actually partake in cross cultural exchanges and that is the very idea.

Look at it from the POV of a student as well - Toronto offers a lot more to do than Ottawa and more so Sudbury. It also gives students a chance to job network in the largest economy in the country. French, English, Jamaican, Sri Lankan doesn't matter - students need to worry about what they are doing to do with their lives and Toronto offers a damn side more opportunities to network than Ottawa and Sudbury. Sure Montreal is a wonderful urban experience but again, the niche that this university will attract may be one that is aware the city is in English Canada but with over 140 different mother tongues spoken so again, this may actually be the appeal. Otherwise if they want to immerse themselves in solely a French Canadian cultural experience, why not just go to Montreal!? The thing is, I don't know why this is attracting such bitterness - any institution that forwards French Language in Canada outside of established French parts of the country should be celebrated. The Franco-Ontarian community in Sudbury and Ottawa will still be there. Heck Sudbury is just a 4 hour drive from T.O or a short 45 minute flight.. I don't get you guys!

Last edited by fusion2; 05-12-2018 at 10:48 AM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 10:41 AM
 
789 posts, read 939,609 times
Reputation: 1725
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
The French-language university in Toronto will draw away and "steal" Francophones from Québec, thus reducing the share of Francophones in Québec, thus leading to a further weakening of the French language in Québec and Canada.
Dear Quebecois,

You really should start accepting defeat in this grand battle. The final implementation of the english masterplan is afoot and there is nothing that can be done to stop it

. Oh how i would wish to be there to see the shock on your face when you realise that everything you knew about history has been a sideshow. All historical events since the Quebec act have been intentional distractions designed to lull you into a false sense of security whilst we worked towards our real objective.....to eradicate the use of french in North America, Quebec specifically.

How does it feel? Well ...you'd better get used to it. Operation English Dominance in Quebec is near completion and theres nothing you can do to stop it! mwhahaahhhaaaaa
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Old 05-12-2018, 01:19 PM
 
518 posts, read 255,384 times
Reputation: 458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minato ku View Post
I don't understand why some people have hard time to aklowegle that there are many French speaking people in Africa.
French hatred maybe?
Racism (can't imagine that non-white people could speak French)?

You can go in Senegal and in Tunisia with Google street view.
Almost every shops and every adverts are in French in Senegal.
Even in Tunisia where there is a big official language Arabic, French is very present.

Unlike what QuebecOpec claims Francophonie uses a scientific approch to define who is French speaking.
They don't include everyone and they don't consider Vietnam as a French speaking country.
Being part of the francophonie organisation doesn't mean that you are a French speaking country.
Dear Minato, that Africa has many French-speaking people is beyond debate. Obviously, the FLU will lure many students, including Africans, because there are many French-speaking people in Africa.

There are some African countries where French has an important place and is indeed a relevant and important language, and is often spoken, though there are numerous African countries and non-African countries, where this is not the case, but it is claimed by La Francophonie that they are francophone, which is misleading.

We have to carefully examine the numbers of francophones, including their language skills, in relation to the total population for every single country that is listed by Francophonie. If we do it, we will find out how absurd their numbers are.:

Here's an official map of the Francophonie organization and its „wonderful numbers“:
https://www.francophonie.org/carto.html


Francophonie defines as „Francophone“: Everybody who learnt French.

So, in Germany there are 11,9 million francophones - more than in Canada which has only 10,4 million francophones. Interesting, Germany has more francophones than Canada! How many francophones does the United Kingdom have according to the Francophonie? 10,5 million? Woha, the UK has also more francophones than Canada!
How many francophones does Italy have? 9,3 Million francophones does Italy have according to Francophonie – that's more than Belgium, which only has 8 million francophones!
How many francophones does Algeria have? 11,2 million. So, Germany (11,9 million) has more francophones than Algeria, that's a sensation!
4,4 Million francophones live in Haiti – that's less than in Spain, which has 5 million francophones! Thank you Francophonie for these info! Oh, Spain has also more francophones than the Centralafrican Republic and Gabon combined.

La Francophonie does not distinguish between „perfect“, „good“, „medium“ and „low“ French language skills. It even counts people as francophone that have learnt French 20 years ago and might have totally forgotten it in the meantime, or never used it since the time that they have learnt it.


In Québec, the Office québécois de la langue française officially defines a francophone, whose main everyday language is French. Alternatively, it also counts people whose native language is French, as francophones.
http://gdt.oqlf.gouv.qc.ca/ficheOqlf..._Fiche=8359655
Définition:
Personne qui utilise couramment la langue française dans la plupart des situations de la vie quotidienne.


OQLF's defintion implies that these people have perfect or very good French skills.
If French is the language of the everyday life, it also implies that the person is very likely to live in a real francophone environment.

I think the OQLF should collect statistics about the francophone world, instead of La Francophonie which publishes extremely misleading and imprecise information.

In Québec, we laugh at people who accord credibility to StatisticCanada's „Knowledge of Official language“ numbers, we know very well that these numbers are more or less meaningless, knowing French or knowing English says nothing about the quality of English or French skills; language most often spoken and native language are much better indicators.

If we would define the Anglophone world, by using the same logics as La Francophonie is using for the Francophone world, I think two-thirds of the entire world would be labelled as „anglophone“. According to OQLF, Anglophones are only those whose native or everyday language is English. The numbers of La Francophonie are so absurd.



I'm waiting for La Francophonie to publish more concrete numbers and to distinguish between three categories: Good, Medium and low French skills.

La Francophonie is not publishing these concrete numbers. Why not?
Because it would show that the majority of the Francophone world has only medium or low French skills.....




Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
I've actually been to Morocco and Tunisia and French is huge in those countries. Casablanca has some truly remarkable and beautiful French Colonial architecture. Generally speaking the people were friendly and even though i'm an Anglo Canadian who doesn't speak French, they work with you to communicate.
Well, according to La Francophonie Germany has more Francophones than Algeria...
If you wanna learn French, don't forget to send a letter to La Francophonie and inform them about your decision, so that they can count you as francophone and push up their statistics. Four courses of French will be enough to qualify as francophone... Well, maybe Canada will soon overtake Germany as the second most francophone country in the western world, but before surpassing Germany, it must also surpass the UK, which is also more francophone than Canada according to La Francophonie.

I have trust into OQLF, but not into La Francophonie. That's one of the organizations with the most absurd numbers ever.

Last edited by QuebecOpec; 05-12-2018 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Gatineau, Québec
24,370 posts, read 30,711,143 times
Reputation: 9898
Quote:
Originally Posted by fusion2 View Post
What you see as disappointment may actually attract a niche for exactly this reason.. It isn't just about immersing yourself in French language and culture, but having the opportunity to be in a place with a huge variety. So maybe outside the classroom they can actually partake in cross cultural exchanges and that is the very idea.

Look at it from the POV of a student as well - Toronto offers a lot more to do than Ottawa and more so Sudbury. It also gives students a chance to job network in the largest economy in the country. French, English, Jamaican, Sri Lankan doesn't matter - students need to worry about what they are doing to do with their lives and Toronto offers a damn side more opportunities to network than Ottawa and Sudbury. Sure Montreal is a wonderful urban experience but again, the niche that this university will attract may be one that is aware the city is in English Canada but with over 140 different mother tongues spoken so again, this may actually be the appeal. Otherwise if they want to immerse themselves in solely a French Canadian cultural experience, why not just go to Montreal!? The thing is, I don't know why this is attracting such bitterness - any institution that forwards French Language in Canada outside of established French parts of the country should be celebrated. The Franco-Ontarian community in Sudbury and Ottawa will still be there. Heck Sudbury is just a 4 hour drive from T.O or a short 45 minute flight.. I don't get you guys!
I am not bitter at all.

I just think that Franco-Ontarians are struggling right now and have limited resources, and this is probably not the best use of them.

They are spreading themselves too thin.
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Old 05-12-2018, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,893 posts, read 12,373,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecOpec View Post
Well, according to La Francophonie Germany has more Francophones than Algeria...
If you wanna learn French, don't forget to send a letter to La Francophonie and inform them about your decision, so that they can count you as francophone and push up their statistics. Four courses of French will be enough to qualify as francophone... Well, maybe Canada will soon overtake Germany as the second most francophone country in the western world, but before surpassing Germany, it must also surpass the UK, which is also more francophone than Canada according to La Francophonie.

I have trust into OQLF, but not into La Francophonie. That's one of the organizations with the most absurd numbers ever.
Actually I agree with you that simply learning the language shouldn't count you as Francophone. Even If I picked up French to the point that I was completely fluent, I wouldn't count myself as Francophone though I don't think La Francophonie should simply ignore people who have learned to speak French. If I were La Francophonie I would want to know how many people in the world speak the language - even one's who aren't Francophone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acajack View Post
I am not bitter at all.

I just think that Franco-Ontarians are struggling right now and have limited resources, and this is probably not the best use of them.

They are spreading themselves too thin.
So if they are spreading thin honestly AJ - I doubt that a university would galvanize that group to the point of saving them. Putting it in a small city with a community that may not be there long term to support it may not make economic sense either, even if there is a historical and rooted community, the world is changing and if Quebec feels isolated I can only imagine how they feel. That all said, I think QC Opec has a point that with Toronto there is probably economic reasons behind locating the uni here. It will be able to leverage all the resources and connections of a global city. If it is located in Toronto and the university attracts Franco Ontarians, Canadians and international Francophone students I do welcome it however, I know people in the city who have complained of a lack of solid options for higher level French instruction and it would be a most welcomed group.

Last edited by fusion2; 05-12-2018 at 04:19 PM..
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Old 05-12-2018, 05:47 PM
 
Location: Toronto
12,893 posts, read 12,373,634 times
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Oh wait I missed the very first sentence of QCOpec's post lol.. Toronto IS getting this FLU. It's in the bag. Why are we having this discussion it's over Toronto won.. Sorry Ottawa and Sudbury you are not the most French deserved city in Ontario for a FLU Toronto is :P

https://www.blogto.com/city/2017/08/...rsity-ontario/

This FLU will provide Toronto's burgeoning French speaking community with much needed relief.. Glendon is bursting at the seems here..
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