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Blacks experience more discrimination because of all the crime and violence they commit. They get more focus from police because no one else causes as much trouble as blacks do.
All ethnic groups started off with a clean slate and at the same level. Over many decades Chinese and Indians and mostly chose to work hard and get educated and stay out of trouble and that's why people now view them as generally peaceful, hardworking people. This is true for most other ethnic groups as well.
Blacks on the otherhand chose the opposite route and turned to committing constant crime and violence and murder over many decades and now people rightfully view them as generally violent and criminal. If blacks really don't want to be viewed in this light, THEN STOP COMMITTING CRIME AND MURDER. Its as simple as that. Just as it took many years for blacks to gain their violent and criminal reputation, its going to take many years for them to get rid of it now.
If you live in Toronto then you know there's about 1.5 million asians living in the GTA and about 400,000 blacks. How come asians can have a population 4 TIMES LARGER than blacks yet be hard pressed to be involved in even 5 murders a year in the city here, while blacks are commonly involved in 50% or more of the murders in the GTA annually?
That alone should tell you why people look at blacks negatively because why should we lie to ourselves and treat blacks as if they were equally as peaceful as non-blacks when the statistics clearly show the opposite? Even if no matter how much crime blacks committed, if non-blacks and police purposely chose to continually treat them as equals and with the upmost of respect, do you honestly believe blacks would all of a sudden change their behavior and commit less crime and murder? HELL NO. Most of them would STILL BEHAVE EXACTLY THE SAME if not even worse because they know they can get away with more now.
The point is blacks messed things up for themselves and now they have to EARN the trust of non-blacks and police back. Tough luck that people perceive them as criminals because they EARNED that title. And with the way blacks continue to commit crime without giving a damn, it seems many of them don't care enough to want to change that perception of their race, so I say SCREW THEM and they get everything that they deserve. Sucks for all the good blacks out there, but the bad people among you ruined it.
When I speak about discrimination, I mean all forms of it -- every single type of differential treatment -- not just those related to crime control.
All groups do not start off the same. This view is actually insane. Every group is not stereotyped the same way, and this is true going far back in time -- well before immigration laws were relaxed in the 1960s.
In addition, generally speaking there was a larger black presence here before the laws were liberalized and other visible minority groups started to enter the country in large numbers. (There were more Asians on the west coast, however.) This means that blacks would have 1) a longer exposure to discrimination, and 2) that the discrimination they would have encountered would have been more intense (since discrimination at the time got better over time). Discrimination tends to disadvantage the people who are discriminated against. This means that they will tend to be poorer, and poverty is one factor that can be associated with increase rates of criminal offending. That very well could feed stereotypes (though stereotypes associating blacks with crime are insensitive to actual crime rates to some extent).
And of course, even if blacks were not here in larger numbers before other visible minority groups, they were in the states in much larger numbers before other minority groups. Racist beliefs about the character of blacks were widespread in the US. Given the closeness of the countries, and the fact that Canadians typically follow what happens in the states relatively closely, this would have affected Canadians' view of blacks. This also means that when immigration laws were relaxed in the 1960s, blacks did not start off at the same place that other groups did.
Black people are discriminated against in contexts and situations in which a fear of crime is not an issue, including in employment contexts when job candidates are being interviewed for jobs. I live downtown in the westend, and as racist as I think Toronto is, I don't often feel that people are afraid of me (I am a black male in my 30s who looks like I am in my 20s). And it seems to me that it has gotten better in this respect since I have been here.
So let's set aside discrimination in the form of heightened scrutiny in the context of crime control. Discrimination against blacks in other contexts is far worse than discrimination against other visible minority groups. And it has been shown that discrimination is associated with an increased risk of criminal offending. The evidence on this point is actually more substantial than what I thought even when I wrote that message. A key point in this other literature is that discrimination reduces self-control, and reduced self-control increases the risk of criminal offending.
You speak about trust, and how we need to earn it back so that we are not treated as criminals. But trust would appear only to be an issue in circumstances where people lack information about an individual. But the truth is that black people are subject to a variety of forms of differential treatment -- even if not differential treatment related to avoiding crime -- even when the black person was known not to be a criminal, and indeed was known to be a well-educated person of unassailable character. I can personally attest to this. I believe I am the only black person in the whole city that does what I do, and yet I am discriminated against by most of my well-educated colleagues. Black people are extremely stigmatized in this city, and even if there is some historical connection to differential crime rates -- themselves the outcome, I would argue, primarily of discrimination -- I am convinced that the connect is now loose.
I hope you can see that I have responded to you in some detail. If you respond to this, please be sure to respond in kind -- that is, please be sure to respond to what I have actually said and explain where I am wrong.
Last edited by Leaving on a Jet Plane; 09-30-2014 at 12:00 AM..
Well regarding blacks in the United States, I think part of the issue vs immigrants is that their background is pretty different which matters.
Immigrants came to the US with optimism and hope for a better life. That means they're going to have a very different outlook than someone whose ancestors were brought to the US to be slaves and have then been struggling with discrimination and all sorts of obstacles for another 150 years. You're less likely to be optimistic about the future with that background.
I suspect that the selectiveness towards certain immigrant groups is a factor too. You look at Latinos in the US and they don't do as well as Asians. But you have 3 billion + Asians and only 15 million Asian Americans compared to about 200 million people living in Mexico, Central America, Cuba and Puerto Rico (the main sources of Latin Americans) with 50 million Hispanic Americans. While many of the Asians immigrating to the US might be poor and arrive in the inner cities (at least a few decades ago), they're more likely to have a university degree, or some skill set or be particularly motivated to become successful. Looking at immigrants to the US, Asian immigrants are more likely to have college degrees than the native white Americans. And actually so are African immigrants. On the other hand, educational attainment is much lower for Latino immigrants. If you're poor but well educated, you're going to have greater upwards social mobility than someone that's poor but with only a high school degree. And you can help your kids through school more too. And more recently I think many Asian immigrants are more middle class than poor when they arrive.
And it's not the same with discrimination either. For hundreds of years blacks in the US have been performing low skilled work because they were prevented from doing anything else so that's going to affect how whites see them in terms of what blacks are capable of and what their place in society is. Asians made up an insignificant portion of the US population 50 years ago so while there was some xenophobia at first, there were still relatively few preconceived notions to overcome in building a positive reputation.
The situation in Canada has been different. There were relatively few blacks in Canada for much of its history*, and I think discrimination has generally not been as bad. I think most blacks in Canada, at least in big cities like Toronto are immigrants or descendants of immigrants from the last 50 years. Nonetheless some of the black immigrant groups might not have as high education levels as Asian immigrants when they arrived, or might come from countries with various problems. And I think as Leaving on a Jet Plane said, the preconceived notions from the US are likely to have at least partially carried over to Canada because of how close the two countries are.
*It seems like about 3% in 1850 in Upper Canada (Ontario) according to some estimates? That's similar to the Northern USA at the same time, although it would later increase to about 10% in the Northern USA following the Great Migration. It's currently 12.6% for the US as a whole.
Blacks experience more discrimination because of all the crime and violence they commit. They get more focus from police because no one else causes as much trouble as blacks do.
All ethnic groups started off with a clean slate and at the same level. Over many decades Chinese and Indians and mostly chose to work hard and get educated and stay out of trouble and that's why people now view them as generally peaceful, hardworking people. This is true for most other ethnic groups as well.
Blacks on the otherhand chose the opposite route and turned to committing constant crime and violence and murder over many decades and now people rightfully view them as generally violent and criminal. If blacks really don't want to be viewed in this light, THEN STOP COMMITTING CRIME AND MURDER. Its as simple as that. Just as it took many years for blacks to gain their violent and criminal reputation, its going to take many years for them to get rid of it now.
If you live in Toronto then you know there's about 1.5 million asians living in the GTA and about 400,000 blacks. How come asians can have a population 4 TIMES LARGER than blacks yet be hard pressed to be involved in even 5 murders a year in the city here, while blacks are commonly involved in 50% or more of the murders in the GTA annually?
That alone should tell you why people look at blacks negatively because why should we lie to ourselves and treat blacks as if they were equally as peaceful as non-blacks when the statistics clearly show the opposite? Even if no matter how much crime blacks committed, if non-blacks and police purposely chose to continually treat them as equals and with the upmost of respect, do you honestly believe blacks would all of a sudden change their behavior and commit less crime and murder? HELL NO. Most of them would STILL BEHAVE EXACTLY THE SAME if not even worse because they know they can get away with more now.
The point is blacks messed things up for themselves and now they have to EARN the trust of non-blacks and police back. Tough luck that people perceive them as criminals because they EARNED that title. And with the way blacks continue to commit crime without giving a damn, it seems many of them don't care enough to want to change that perception of their race, so I say SCREW THEM and they get everything that they deserve. Sucks for all the good blacks out there, but the bad people among you ruined it.
I disagree with you because Blacks have been facing discrimination for over 100 years, before crime was a problem.
And I don't care why anyone discriminates against Blacks. The only thing I care about, in this instance, is what it costs me. I don't about anything else. What am I suppose to do in this instance? Sit and take it?
Blacks experience more discrimination because of all the crime and violence they commit. They get more focus from police because no one else causes as much trouble as blacks do.
All ethnic groups started off with a clean slate and at the same level. Over many decades Chinese and Indians and mostly chose to work hard and get educated and stay out of trouble and that's why people now view them as generally peaceful, hardworking people. This is true for most other ethnic groups as well.
Blacks on the otherhand chose the opposite route and turned to committing constant crime and violence and murder over many decades and now people rightfully view them as generally violent and criminal. If blacks really don't want to be viewed in this light, THEN STOP COMMITTING CRIME AND MURDER. Its as simple as that. Just as it took many years for blacks to gain their violent and criminal reputation, its going to take many years for them to get rid of it now.
If you live in Toronto then you know there's about 1.5 million asians living in the GTA and about 400,000 blacks. How come asians can have a population 4 TIMES LARGER than blacks yet be hard pressed to be involved in even 5 murders a year in the city here, while blacks are commonly involved in 50% or more of the murders in the GTA annually?
That alone should tell you why people look at blacks negatively because why should we lie to ourselves and treat blacks as if they were equally as peaceful as non-blacks when the statistics clearly show the opposite? Even if no matter how much crime blacks committed, if non-blacks and police purposely chose to continually treat them as equals and with the upmost of respect, do you honestly believe blacks would all of a sudden change their behavior and commit less crime and murder? HELL NO. Most of them would STILL BEHAVE EXACTLY THE SAME if not even worse because they know they can get away with more now.
The point is blacks messed things up for themselves and now they have to EARN the trust of non-blacks and police back. Tough luck that people perceive them as criminals because they EARNED that title. And with the way blacks continue to commit crime without giving a damn, it seems many of them don't care enough to want to change that perception of their race, so I say SCREW THEM and they get everything that they deserve. Sucks for all the good blacks out there, but the bad people among you ruined it.
This is City-Data, not Stormfront. I'm so sick of the racist **** on this message board.
Black people are discriminated against in contexts and situations in which a fear of crime is not an issue, including in employment contexts when job candidates are being interviewed for jobs. I live downtown in the westend, and as racist as I think Toronto is, I don't often feel that people are afraid of me (I am a black male in my 30s who looks like I am in my 20s). And it seems to me that it has gotten better in this respect since I have been here.
Are you saying Toronto is a really racist city?? If so then I definitely disagree. Toronto is probably the least racist place in all of Canada considering how many different ethnicities live together and hence even if you're not friends with people outside of your own background, you can at least coexist with them peacefully since you're use to being around them.
I've lived in Toronto for a number of years now and from non-white friends, aquaintances and people in general, I've never heard them or any minority complain about discrimination except for blacks and that's mostly with regards to policing and not how blacks are treated by non-blacks. Outside of the GTA? Perhaps abit of racism I can see that happening, but in the GTA? Not very much.
Quote:
So let's set aside discrimination in the form of heightened scrutiny in the context of crime control. Discrimination against blacks in other contexts is far worse than discrimination against other visible minority groups. And it has been shown that discrimination is associated with an increased risk of criminal offending. The evidence on this point is actually more substantial than what I thought even when I wrote that message. A key point in this other literature is that discrimination reduces self-control, and reduced self-control increases the risk of criminal offending.
Where is this evidence that shows discrimination reduces self-control?? And the only time I've seen the argument used is for when blacks try and justify why they have high crime rates, because they're discriminated against and hence they need to lash out? What BS.
Almost every ethnic group has been discriminated against at one time or another in their history yet not everyone chose to turn to crime and violence because of it. Most chose to work hard and get educated and dig themselves out of poverty instead of complaining about their circumstances.
Quote:
You speak about trust, and how we need to earn it back so that we are not treated as criminals. But trust would appear only to be an issue in circumstances where people lack information about an individual. But the truth is that black people are subject to a variety of forms of differential treatment -- even if not differential treatment related to avoiding crime -- even when the black person was known not to be a criminal, and indeed was known to be a well-educated person of unassailable character. I can personally attest to this. I believe I am the only black person in the whole city that does what I do, and yet I am discriminated against by most of my well-educated colleagues. Black people are extremely stigmatized in this city, and even if there is some historical connection to differential crime rates -- themselves the outcome, I would argue, primarily of discrimination -- I am convinced that the connect is now loose.
Blacks are stereotyped and profiled in the city just like they are in many places where they settle down in any numbers, but that isn't from 'lack of information' or from ignorance, but from FACTS. Whether you live in the GTA or not, just go google Toronto shooting or Toronto stabbing and then see how many news stories come up that involve blacks either as the victim or as the suspect. Or if you do live in the GTA watch the nightly news and see how many violent crimes involve blacks.
The point is its not the LACK of information that drives people to stereotype blacks in a negative light, its TOO MUCH information that does so. Namely if anyone watches the nightly news regularly, they will see that the majority of violent crime and murder involve blacks. If day after day, year after year its blacks that have the highest crime and murder rates in the GTA and its usually them that show up in on the news in crime stories regularly, you'd have to be STUPID to not come to the conclusion that blacks are more violent than non-blacks by a fair margin. That's not racism or discrimination, that's the TRUTH.
For you personally, if you're getting crap from your colleagues and you haven't done anything to warrant it, then yes I would say that's wrong. But as I've said before, blacks have mostly themselves to blame for their negative image and that sucks for good black people out there, but blame your fellow blacks for that and not us.
I disagree with you because Blacks have been facing discrimination for over 100 years, before crime was a problem.
Not in Toronto or in Canada blacks haven't, at least not anymore than any other ethnic group has been discriminated against here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoke
This is City-Data, not Stormfront. I'm so sick of the racist **** on this message board.
And this is why nothing ever gets solved, because anytime anyone wants to talk about black crime and the problems blacks have in general we get people like you always jumping in to say 'that's racist'. This is the same crap that goes on with Muslims. Say something negative about them and its 'Islamophobia'.
Its so damn sad to see how many people are so willing to continually make excuses for blacks instead of admitting they have serious problems that need to be openly discussed and solved rather than being swept under the rug and pretend nothing's wrong and people don't know what's really going on.
Are you saying Toronto is a really racist city?? If so then I definitely disagree. Toronto is probably the least racist place in all of Canada considering how many different ethnicities live together and hence even if you're not friends with people outside of your own background, you can at least coexist with them peacefully since you're use to being around them.
I've lived in Toronto for a number of years now and from non-white friends, aquaintances and people in general, I've never heard them or any minority complain about discrimination except for blacks and that's mostly with regards to policing and not how blacks are treated by non-blacks. Outside of the GTA? Perhaps abit of racism I can see that happening, but in the GTA? Not very much.
Where is this evidence that shows discrimination reduces self-control?? And the only time I've seen the argument used is for when blacks try and justify why they have high crime rates, because they're discriminated against and hence they need to lash out? What BS.
Almost every ethnic group has been discriminated against at one time or another in their history yet not everyone chose to turn to crime and violence because of it. Most chose to work hard and get educated and dig themselves out of poverty instead of complaining about their circumstances.
Blacks are stereotyped and profiled in the city just like they are in many places where they settle down in any numbers, but that isn't from 'lack of information' or from ignorance, but from FACTS. Whether you live in the GTA or not, just go google Toronto shooting or Toronto stabbing and then see how many news stories come up that involve blacks either as the victim or as the suspect. Or if you do live in the GTA watch the nightly news and see how many violent crimes involve blacks.
The point is its not the LACK of information that drives people to stereotype blacks in a negative light, its TOO MUCH information that does so. Namely if anyone watches the nightly news regularly, they will see that the majority of violent crime and murder involve blacks. If day after day, year after year its blacks that have the highest crime and murder rates in the GTA and its usually them that show up in on the news in crime stories regularly, you'd have to be STUPID to not come to the conclusion that blacks are more violent than non-blacks by a fair margin. That's not racism or discrimination, that's the TRUTH.
For you personally, if you're getting crap from your colleagues and you haven't done anything to warrant it, then yes I would say that's wrong. But as I've said before, blacks have mostly themselves to blame for their negative image and that sucks for good black people out there, but blame your fellow blacks for that and not us.
I am saying that Toronto is an extremely racist city for anti-black racism, almost certainly the worst in Canada. And I mean Toronto, not the GTA. I very much doubt that the GTA is as bad, though expressions of racism there might be less subtle.
It is irrelevant whether every ethnic group has been discriminated against. The important questions are whether the discrimination the different groups have experienced are equally widespread and of the same type. And here there clear differences between blacks and other visible minority groups.
As I understand it, the connection between self-control and criminality is not new, nor does it seem surprising. What is new is the connection between discrimination/stereotyping and self-control.
What I mean is that whether a particular individual should be treated with suspicion has to do with what information there is to go on about him. I presume, for example, that you wouldn't want to treat a judge with suspicion if you knew he was a judge. But based on my experience in Toronto, I would say that information about an individual of this sort does not make as much of a difference as it does in the US. This suggests that the problem here is more one of pure race than it is in the US.
Not in Toronto or in Canada blacks haven't, at least not anymore than any other ethnic group has been discriminated against here.
You need to read this:
Quote:
Christie v. York
Blacks were widely thought of as substandard and unable to be integrated with Canadian society. Even the courts were known for habitually working in opposition to Canadian blacks. During the 1930s, many court rulings – such as the Supreme Court of Canada's case Christie v. York (1939) – solidified that restaurants were legally allowed to refuse service to black people. In the case of Christie v. York, an establishment called York Tavern in Montreal denied service to a black man named Fred Christie. Christie and his legal defense argued that the innkeeper was not allowed to refuse service to any person, unless under exceptional conditions. The Supreme Court ruled that the corporation had the “right of a merchant to arbitrarily refuse service.”
Not in Toronto or in Canada blacks haven't, at least not anymore than any other ethnic group has been discriminated against here.
And this is why nothing ever gets solved, because anytime anyone wants to talk about black crime and the problems blacks have in general we get people like you always jumping in to say 'that's racist'. This is the same crap that goes on with Muslims. Say something negative about them and its 'Islamophobia'.
Its so damn sad to see how many people are so willing to continually make excuses for blacks instead of admitting they have serious problems that need to be openly discussed and solved rather than being swept under the rug and pretend nothing's wrong and people don't know what's really going on.
There is a problem, but the way you frame it and what you blame it on is racist. That's why people like myself just simply laugh at beliefs like yours in 2014.
As I understand it, the connection between self-control and criminality is not new, nor does it seem surprising. What is new is the connection between discrimination/stereotyping and self-control.
What I mean is that whether a particular individual should be treated with suspicion has to do with what information there is to go on about him. I presume, for example, that you wouldn't want to treat a judge with suspicion if you knew he was a judge. But based on my experience in Toronto, I would say that information about an individual of this sort does not make as much of a difference as it does in the US. This suggests that the problem here is more one of pure race than it is in the US.
I read the link you posted and it is UTTER BS. People perceive blacks as violent because THEY ARE VIOLENT. IE cause and effect. Even if all non-blacks treated blacks with the upmost respect and equality, NOTHING WILL CHANGE for many blacks because bad black parents who raise their kids like trash will continue to raise their kids like trash.
On the otherhand if blacks got their sh$t together and had kids only when they were capable of raising them and then did a good job of raising them like most non-black parents did, that would make a world of difference. Getting rid of the bad elements in black communities and ahving more good black kids being raised means less of them will turn violent and criminal and that will eventually translate into lower crime rates.
Blaming other people for thinking of blacks negatively and then using that to explain why so many blacks commit crime is just another lame excuse in a long line of lame excuses when we know that blacks themselves are the root cause of most of their problems. Continually making excuses means blacks won't have to get up and do something to change themselves because hey its always someone else's fault and not theirs therefore they believe they don't need to do anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner
You need to read this:
Quote:
Christie v. York
Blacks were widely thought of as substandard and unable to be integrated with Canadian society. Even the courts were known for habitually working in opposition to Canadian blacks. During the 1930s, many court rulings – such as the Supreme Court of Canada's case Christie v. York (1939) – solidified that restaurants were legally allowed to refuse service to black people. In the case of Christie v. York, an establishment called York Tavern in Montreal denied service to a black man named Fred Christie. Christie and his legal defense argued that the innkeeper was not allowed to refuse service to any person, unless under exceptional conditions. The Supreme Court ruled that the corporation had the “right of a merchant to arbitrarily refuse service.”
I think that part still holds true to this day. Whether blacks are born in Canada or they come here as immigrants, there's almost always more problems coming from them than anyone else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoke
There is a problem, but the way you frame it and what you blame it on is racist. That's why people like myself just simply laugh at beliefs like yours in 2014.
Exactly in what way am I framing it or what I'm blaming it on is 'racist'?
Tell me your opinion on why black crime rates are so high? How would YOU frame it and what would YOU blame it on?
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