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Old 04-13-2010, 12:24 PM
 
14,994 posts, read 23,954,158 times
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Lets face it, Lexus are Toyota's with leather seats and a few other additional options. Just as Acura's are Honda's with leather seats....

Some of them aren't only safety risks, they are just plain bad bargains. Why a person would pay over $50k for what is basically a utility vehicle (SUV) is senseless.

Most of the Toyota models on the market are still good cars, I just bought one. But if you want a reliable Lexus GX460, do yourself a favor, buy a RAV4 or a 4runner. Sure you don't get the "exclusive leather heated seats" or the Lexus label but trust me you can live without an option that warms your ass and save $20,000. And you get a more reliable and better car in the bargain.
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Old 04-13-2010, 02:24 PM
 
Location: between Ath,GR & Mia,FL...
2,574 posts, read 2,495,199 times
Reputation: 327
Some ratings organisations ,such as J.D Powers are universally accepted because they are objective & fair...
Same reason that some poll organisations are reliable ( they have big successes & accurate predictions ) & NYT,Washington Post,Fox etc polls are biased & unreliable....

Let's distinguish likeness from quality.

I dislike Toyota in general & that Lexus SUV in particular ,but Toyota is still #1 in the world & generally makes high quality products...
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Old 04-13-2010, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,714 posts, read 31,247,444 times
Reputation: 9270
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Lets face it, Lexus are Toyota's with leather seats and a few other additional options. Just as Acura's are Honda's with leather seats....

Some of them aren't only safety risks, they are just plain bad bargains. Why a person would pay over $50k for what is basically a utility vehicle (SUV) is senseless.

Most of the Toyota models on the market are still good cars, I just bought one. But if you want a reliable Lexus GX460, do yourself a favor, buy a RAV4 or a 4runner. Sure you don't get the "exclusive leather heated seats" or the Lexus label but trust me you can live without an option that warms your ass and save $20,000. And you get a more reliable and better car in the bargain.
Some of what you say is true - about Lexus vs. Toyota. RX = upscale Highlander for example. I think all Lexus models are built in Japan, while many Toyotas sold in the US are built in the US. The interior quality of Lexus is vastly better than most Toyotas. Real wood, far better leather, superior electronics.

But the LS, the GS, the SC, and the IS have no equivalent Toyota models. These are all rear wheel drive cars and there are no RWD Toyota cars. There are no V8 powered Toyota sedans, just SUVs.

It isn't for me to judge whether a SUV is worth $50K or not. It isn't hard to pay $50K for a GMC Denali, which is oh-so-similar to a Tahoe.

I think the data shows Lexus reliability is even better than Toyota in general. In spite of more complicated comfort features.

I don't own a Toyota or a Lexus - but I know people who own both. And the Lexus I have ridden in - are beautifully crafte.
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Old 04-13-2010, 03:14 PM
 
Location: Central Texas
13,714 posts, read 31,247,444 times
Reputation: 9270
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrymiafl View Post
Some ratings organisations ,such as J.D Powers are universally accepted because they are objective & fair...
Same reason that some poll organisations are reliable ( they have big successes & accurate predictions ) & NYT,Washington Post,Fox etc polls are biased & unreliable....

Let's distinguish likeness from quality.

I dislike Toyota in general & that Lexus SUV in particular ,but Toyota is still #1 in the world & generally makes high quality products...
JD Power is NOT universally accepted. JD Power self-promotes its ratings and is successful getting many media outlets to publish their rankings.

But the 2009 auto rankings only had a sample size of 46,000. That is supposed to cover the entire spectrum of vehicles sold in the US. Some of the vehicles covered in their survey are likely to have just a few dozen responses. The sample size may be sufficient for big sellers like the Camry or Accord or Ford Mustang.

The JD Power dependability rating covers just three years. And the initial quality survey is completely worthless since high quality in 90 days doesn't predict reliability over several years.

Buick, Jaguar knock Lexus from top of J.D. Power 2009 Vehicle Dependability Study — Autoblog

Consumer Reports ratings on the other hand are based on over 1 million vehicles. Survey respondents answer a simple yes/no question for each of 22 areas on the vehicles.
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Old 04-13-2010, 04:25 PM
 
Location: Murfreesboro, TN
3,528 posts, read 8,647,967 times
Reputation: 1135
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoffdano View Post
Do you actually READ Consumer Reports? If you did, you would see that for many years now CR has rated several Toyotas rather poorly. The Yaris is not a recommended vehicle. Neither is the FJ. Although both are very reliable, they perform relatively poorly in tests.

Toyotas have generally faired well in CR. But they value practical issure more highly than an enthusiast magazine.

When you pay over $50K for a SUV, its stability control ought to behave better than the 95 that didn't fail that particular test.
I believe the year Yaris CR tested was before it had stability control. Even so, I did not exhibit the tail slide nearly as bad.

One question I have is if CR tested more than one of them. Could it have possibly been a problem eith the ESC system on the tested vehicle only?
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Old 04-13-2010, 05:57 PM
 
Location: Chicago
38,707 posts, read 103,394,526 times
Reputation: 29990
On the one hand, if a vehicle comes equipped with stability control, it bloody well ought to work. On the other, to call a vehicle "dangerous" because it doesn't sufficiently babysit the driver is alarmist nonsense.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:06 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
5,994 posts, read 20,170,329 times
Reputation: 4079
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
Lets face it, Lexus are Toyota's with leather seats and a few other additional options. Just as Acura's are Honda's with leather seats....

Some of them aren't only safety risks, they are just plain bad bargains. Why a person would pay over $50k for what is basically a utility vehicle (SUV) is senseless.

Most of the Toyota models on the market are still good cars, I just bought one. But if you want a reliable Lexus GX460, do yourself a favor, buy a RAV4 or a 4runner. Sure you don't get the "exclusive leather heated seats" or the Lexus label but trust me you can live without an option that warms your ass and save $20,000. And you get a more reliable and better car in the bargain.
That like saying that Cadillacs are just Chevy's with leather seats and Lincolns are just Fords with leather seats. We know that these statements aren't true.
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Old 04-13-2010, 07:24 PM
 
1,628 posts, read 4,047,511 times
Reputation: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
On the one hand, if a vehicle comes equipped with stability control, it bloody well ought to work. On the other, to call a vehicle "dangerous" because it doesn't sufficiently babysit the driver is alarmist nonsense.
Glad that someone got back to the subject of the thread...

Remember this is a 2 3/4 ton SUV. It is ridiculous to think that it would be as stable in a high speed turn as a 'normal' sedan.

The lawyers rule the world, and that is sad for enthusiasts. I figure my '72 Scout II would fail that test, but it sure will do what it was built for, and that is what I want, not what the lawyers and CR or Ralph Nader think is safe.

My work vehicle is an '09 Expedition 4x4 that is almost useless off road. We need a capable off road vehicle in my business but are saddled with this 'soccer mom' car because it was built to the lowest common denominator.

The stability control is too sensitive in my view, invoking in corners that are very handleable at Code 3 speeds. And, it cannot be fully defeated! Aaarrrggh!
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Old 04-13-2010, 09:13 PM
 
9,846 posts, read 22,717,451 times
Reputation: 7738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Drover View Post
On the one hand, if a vehicle comes equipped with stability control, it bloody well ought to work. On the other, to call a vehicle "dangerous" because it doesn't sufficiently babysit the driver is alarmist nonsense.
Well that is the deal with these stability systems is that they are far from perfect(although more refined than previously) and there is a variance in how capable they really are.

My concern with those systems is that people are automatically starting to think they can be saved at any speed and fail to understand if the tires have lost grip, the stability control can gyrate around the best it can, but it can't save everything.
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Old 04-13-2010, 10:22 PM
 
1,628 posts, read 4,047,511 times
Reputation: 542
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
Well that is the deal with these stability systems is that they are far from perfect(although more refined than previously) and there is a variance in how capable they really are.

My concern with those systems is that people are automatically starting to think they can be saved at any speed and fail to understand if the tires have lost grip, the stability control can gyrate around the best it can, but it can't save everything.
Yup, another example of relying on technology rather than teaching folks how to drive properly and holding THEM accountable if they cannot.
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