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Old 11-17-2010, 02:28 PM
 
Location: in the southwest
13,396 posts, read 44,955,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Right, but a first-time traveler doesn't "know how to do it", and after the first time, it's not a question of "does one need to see Europe at least once"?
What first-time traveler are you talking about? The one who thinks you're supposed to take a taxi from Heathrow instead of train or tube?

There have been many, many first time travelers to Europe who did their research, had a great time, and went back for more, again and again.
It's not that big a deal to read some books or research online.

JT, I am not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. The fact is that Europe is not for everyone, true enough. But your line of reasoning does not make sense to me.
I guess we will just have to agree to agree, but not for the same reasons.
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Old 11-17-2010, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,764,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueWillowPlate View Post
What first-time traveler are you talking about? The one who thinks you're supposed to take a taxi from Heathrow instead of train or tube?

There have been many, many first time travelers to Europe who did their research, had a great time, and went back for more, again and again.
It's not that big a deal to read some books or research online.

JT, I am not sure I understand what point you are trying to make. The fact is that Europe is not for everyone, true enough. But your line of reasoning does not make sense to me.
I guess we will just have to agree to agree, but not for the same reasons.
My reasoning is really quite simple. It the same as my reasoning that First Class is not for everyone. No matter how nice it is, no matter how rewarding the experience, it's not for everyone, for a pretty obvious reason. Let's just call it cost/benefit ratio.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:29 AM
 
Location: in the southwest
13,396 posts, read 44,955,354 times
Reputation: 13599
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
My reasoning is really quite simple. It the same as my reasoning that First Class is not for everyone. No matter how nice it is, no matter how rewarding the experience, it's not for everyone, for a pretty obvious reason. Let's just call it cost/benefit ratio.
My problem with this analogy has been explained in previous posts.
Obviously your theory works for you.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
You can disagree as heartily as you like, but I challenge you to spend two weeks in Europe sleeping in private rooms with beds and travel 1,000 miles on public transport and eat three wholesome meals a day for less than double or even triple the cost of doing the same thing in Thailand or Chile or Kenya. There is simply no way you can escape the fact that in Europe, the most basic amenities will cost much more than anywhere else, even if you spend nearly all your time searching for the rare cheap alternative.

Even in relatively expensive Korea and Taiwan, my wife and I considered $15 a day each to be our target budget for food, lodging and transport. Eating three meals a day, served at our table, a private room with a bed every night. In most of the rest of southeast Asia, it was easy at $10 a day or less. In what Euro country can you do that for less than $30 per person per day?

Arthur Frommer's famous book is now published as "Europe on $50 a day". Think you can do it much cheaper?
I've lived in Japan and Korea, and you cannot get by for $15US for food, room and transport. I don't know when you visited there...
I'm currently in Thailand.
It's less than 30 baht to the dollar.
I live in Europe and travel to Thailand annually.

Where are you staying in Thailand for $10 eating 3 meals, transport and room?

BTW, once the figure a flight to Asia into your computation, it's a bit more than $10/day.
You can fly US to urope for cheap; I stay for about €25/night in Europe and eat meals and transport for another €20 or less.

Do you really use Frommers?

Understand that the dollar sucks and prices anywhere are not so cheapbased on US currency rates.

Last edited by chielgirl; 11-18-2010 at 10:45 AM..
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
Let me simplify it. If a couple wants to take a 3-week vacation and has less than $2,000 in their budget after plane fare, to spend on the ground, Europe is not for them. Therefore, in response to the OP's title question, No, Europe is not for everyone. (Defining Europe, as I presume we are, as the Euro Zone.)

I just took a trip down Expedia Lane, and looked for Chicago/Dusseldorf, for three weeks in April.
Flight only for 2 = $1,664.
With cheapest listed hotel = $3,134.
So counting absolutely nothing except hotel alone, paying in advance for a full three weeks, the typical American traveling couple will be spending a bare bones minimum of $70 per night, not counting any costs for eating, ground transportation, anything. (The house I rent in Mexico is $70 a week, a 5 minute walk from the beach.)

Edit---It would be about $60 a night for Barcelona, and as low as $40 a night for Budapest. So Hungary would be doable, three weeks for $2K.
I stayed in Barcelona for €25/night at a nice B&B.
My flight was €16 round from Munich.
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Old 11-18-2010, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,764,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
I've lived in Japan and Korea, and you cannot get by for $15US for food, room and transport. I don't know when you visited there...
.
1996, Korea and Taiwan, ten days in each country. That's $30 for two people. We never paid more than $20 for a double room anywhere. Eating in market stalls or preparing food ourselves was not difficult at $5 per person per day, as long as meat is not required. We could usually cook noodles in our hotel. Prices may have gone up since then, but not that much. Prices there actually went down quite a lot in the crisis about 5 years ago. They are small countries, so transport wasn't a lot.

And, those (and Singapore) were by far the most expensive countries on our 8-month trip, and the over-budget cost there was quickly made up in cheap countries. In all, we were on the road for 8-months at an average of $22 a day, together ($11 per person). I can't even dream of ever being wealthy enough to wander around Europe for 8 months. Traveling around in Asia was cheaper than staying home, by half.

Most people I know who live in the USA wrongly believe that you cannot find overnight lodgings for less than $75. Living in the country when you have a comfortable income does not necessarily mean that you know how much you can get by on.

Last edited by jtur88; 11-18-2010 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 11-18-2010, 08:15 PM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
Reputation: 11416
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
1996, Korea and Taiwan, ten days in each country. That's $30 for two people. We never paid more than $20 for a double room anywhere. Eating in market stalls or preparing food ourselves was not difficult at $5 per person per day, as long as meat is not required. We could usually cook noodles in our hotel. Prices may have gone up since then, but not that much. Prices there actually went down quite a lot in the crisis about 5 years ago. They are small countries, so transport wasn't a lot.

And, those (and Singapore) were by far the most expensive countries on our 8-month trip, and the over-budget cost there was quickly made up in cheap countries. In all, we were on the road for 8-months at an average of $22 a day, together ($11 per person). I can't even dream of ever being wealthy enough to wander around Europe for 8 months. Traveling around in Asia was cheaper than staying home, by half.

Most people I know who live in the USA wrongly believe that you cannot find overnight lodgings for less than $75. Living in the country when you have a comfortable income does not necessarily mean that you know how much you can get by on.
15 years ago is not today.
After the World Cup in Korea, prices soared.
You won't find the same Korea today; I guarantee it. My last trip there was 2006 and I know the country a bit.
Your first post said 3 full meals a day, not noodles in your room.

Thailand is more expensive and I stated the baht rate.
I've lived in Korea and Japan during this decade, I guarantee you that you're not doing the same today.
Even Bunglampoo has higher prices than than you're quoting.
I'm in Bangkok at a friend's at the moment so I'm rather current on prices.

I suggest you check out your local library for Lonely Planet if you think you can do the same thing again.

Of course Europe is more expensive than Asia, but the infrastructure is more supportive.
Again, check out a Rough Guide or Lonely Planet and you can travel cheap.
In Italy, you can stay in convents, same in France and Spain.
If you know of websites for booking you're going to find great prices.
RyanAir and EasyJet are cheap flights.

Eating cheese and brotchen is easy; food prices in Europe are comparable to the US. In Germany, it's cheaper to drink alcohol than water or sodas.

I travel 3 out of 4 weekends a month in Europe; I don't have the initial airfare but I have al of the other expenses that travelers do and while the prices are a bit higher than the US, they're not ridiculous.

Remember the dollar has lost value throughout the world. We don't have the buying power that the Euro possesses.
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Old 11-18-2010, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,764,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post

Remember the dollar has lost value throughout the world. We don't have the buying power that the Euro possesses.
When I was there, the Thai Baht was still pegged at 25 to the US dollars. If they are now 30, that alone would make Thai prices actually 17% cheaper now than what they were then. In Korean Won, I was getting 580, fixed, to the dollar, and it is 1132 today. Roughly double.

Meanwhile, the US dollar against the Euro is down 62% in the last ten years, which means everything is now 62% more expensive in Europe in dollar terms than it was then, not even counting any price changes.

The Indian Rupee is up against the US dollar, but only a rather insignificant 6% in ten years, which would leave priced in India vis-a-vis the US pretty much the same now as it was when I was there.

A hotel that cost US$100 in the mid 90's would now cost $163 in a euro country, $106 in India, and $83 in Thailand, and $50 in Korea..

So the fact is, it is actually cheaper to travel in Asia than it was in 1996, as compared to the value of the US dollar. But the opposite is true of Europe, where the cost in dollars has risen shrply.

Last edited by jtur88; 11-18-2010 at 11:13 PM..
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:18 AM
 
Location: Earth
24,620 posts, read 28,236,422 times
Reputation: 11416
Quote:
Originally Posted by jtur88 View Post
When I was there, the Thai Baht was still pegged at 25 to the US dollars. If they are now 30, that alone would make Thai prices actually 17% cheaper now than what they were then. In Korean Won, I was getting 580, fixed, to the dollar, and it is 1132 today. Roughly double.

Meanwhile, the US dollar against the Euro is down 62% in the last ten years, which means everything is now 62% more expensive in Europe in dollar terms than it was then, not even counting any price changes.

The Indian Rupee is up against the US dollar, but only a rather insignificant 6% in ten years, which would leave priced in India vis-a-vis the US pretty much the same now as it was when I was there.

A hotel that cost US$100 in the mid 90's would now cost $163 in a euro country, $106 in India, and $83 in Thailand, and $50 in Korea..
Probably higher; costs have risen and the US dollar has devalued.

So the fact is, it is actually cheaper to travel in Asia than it was in 1996, as compared to the value of the US dollar. But the opposite is true of Europe, where the cost in dollars has risen shrply. Not facts, but erroneous information based on irrelevant and totally outdated data that doesn't take anything into consideration except for exchange rates.
You're not taking into consideration that prices have increased in Asia in that time. Even without the dollar devaluation, the cost of items in Laos and Cambodia and Thailand are higher than they were.
Believe what you want, but I travel to Asia annually and it's not as cheap as you seem to think it is.
Look at real prices not based on your 1996 experience; this is 2010, almost 2011 and costs have escalated.

I do know a little about what I'm talking about, especially since I'm on continent at the moment.
How is your 1996 information relevant to the world in 2010?
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Old 11-19-2010, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Victoria TX
42,579 posts, read 86,764,762 times
Reputation: 36643
Quote:
Originally Posted by chielgirl View Post
You're not taking into consideration that prices have increased in Asia in that time. Even without the dollar devaluation, the cost of items in Laos and Cambodia and Thailand are higher than they were.
Believe what you want, but I travel to Asia annually and it's not as cheap as you seem to think it is.
Look at real prices not based on your 1996 experience; this is 2010, almost 2011 and costs have escalated.

I do know a little about what I'm talking about, especially since I'm on continent at the moment.
How is your 1996 information relevant to the world in 2010?
Prices may or may not have changed, but you said in an earlier post that the exchange rate change is relevant, and in fact the actual rate change would have the opposite effect of increasing the costs.

Have you actually walked down a street in a small town and looked for the cheapest possible accommodations, and spent any time searching out cheap places to eat? If so, then what are typical prices nowadays? If not, then you don't really know.

How much is a cheap room for two with a fan, no air, in Khaosan road in Bangkok now? Lumpy bed, tiny little table, one light bulb, bathroom down the hall.

Check out the New Siam at the bottom of this site http://www.khaosanroad.com/directory...2&country_id=1
Eleven bucks for a double with fan and shared bath, and it looks absolutely luxurious compared to typical backpacker digs. It's so classy, they have a fax and a listing on an internet site and a sunny dining room with matching furniture. I bet I can find a place for half that price, in ten minutes walking around. Even if stuck at the New Siam for $11, it'll be pretty easy for my wife and me to have a $30 day in Bangkok, in fact a $20 day with some damn nice pad thai. Top that in Zurich.

Last edited by jtur88; 11-19-2010 at 11:40 PM..
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