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Not sure. I am hoping things get better there really, before I go …
They won't. What you don't seem to understand is that the people (or should I say the men) who wield the real power in Saudi Arabia honestly believe that what they are doing is right. Women in their eyes ARE inferior to men, so why should they be granted more rights? It wouldn't really be in the best interest of women to do so. It would be like granting five year olds the vote; they might want it, but they wouldn't know what to do with it if they actually managed to get it. Islam is the One True Religion, so why should they allow anyone to violate it precepts? Freedom of individual conscience isn't the supreme good, submission to the Will of God (as outlined in the Koran) is. And of course the State should enforce religious dictates; what else is the State for?
No, everyone ISN"T all the same deep down inside. The people who are running Saudi Arabia have beliefs that are both dear to them and which are completely at odds with modern Western society. That's not going to be changed by tourism.
They won't. What you don't seem to understand is that the people (or should I say the men) who wield the real power in Saudi Arabia honestly believe that what they are doing is right. Women in their eyes ARE inferior to men, so why should they be granted more rights? It wouldn't really be in the best interest of women to do so. It would be like granting five year olds the vote; they might want it, but they wouldn't know what to do with it if they actually managed to get it. Islam is the One True Religion, so why should they allow anyone to violate it precepts? Freedom of individual conscience isn't the supreme good, submission to the Will of God (as outlined in the Koran) is. And of course the State should enforce religious dictates; what else is the State for?
No, everyone ISN"T all the same deep down inside. The people who are running Saudi Arabia have beliefs that are both dear to them and which are completely at odds with modern Western society. That's not going to be changed by tourism.
I follow a young woman from Saudi on Twitter. She's about 22-23. I am not sure how I found her. I follow her mostly out of curiosity but a lot of her tweets are in Arabic. Some are in English but she doesn't post anything too much about her life, other than that she is a nurse.
She did post a pic of her sitting in a restaurant in a tanktop & short shorts … which I was surprised. So either that's not her, or it's not a restaurant in Saudi b/c I didn't think women were allowed to dress like that.
Jordan has the hot springs of Ma'in. It's the equivalent of the Dead Sea in Israel for half the price with better amenities and much less people trying to empty your pockets. At the low prices it has, it's worth the low prices to stay for a week or two. I do every year for the P&Q.
Petra and the Wadi Rum are also in Jordan and major tourist attractions.
For one or two day tours, sure. But it's a 4 hour drive through the desert to get there from Amman. Might as well head for Aqaba (sister to Eilat,Israel) for R&R afterwards. it's a six hour drive back to Amman afterwards.
I have a small team that works for me in Saudi - all female, mostly under 30. There are several on the team who have never allowed me to see their face - they stay covered in my presence. They are all delightful, fascinating, intelligent, young women. What we may see as repressive, they see as protection. They're thrilled about driving and keep begging me to come back. It's a long ways, not fun for someone my age but I do kind of enjoy my time there. It's safe even for a gringo wandering around the big city.
As I told my wife, even the niqab can't hide the smile in their eyes.
I do feel sorry for the team who aren't from SA. Typically, they live in a compound and don't particularly enjoy their time there. Their husbands don't accompany them and they're effectively prisoners in these compounds. These are all professional level employees - accounting, audit, finance, customer service, etc.
I do have a funny story - when I was there last, a young lady came over to where I was sitting with my team members - it was clear she wanted to talk t me. Beautiful girl. I asked her about all the fancy dress stores that I see all over the city - I already knew the answer but I asked her, "Who do you guys dress up for in these beautiful dresses?"
She stated, "We dress up for each other" and then she made me an offer that I couldn't refuse:
"Do you want to see a picture of me from my last party?"
Oh my goodness - her picture showed what the abaya covered - she had all the right curves in all the right places. Eyes that were beautiful - which I already realized. She reminded me of a young Ali Macgraw. *Now* I know what's under the abaya. lol
If you've ever flown to Saudi, you'll notice an interesting change when you're about an hour out from landing. All the young women dressed in normal clothing disappear into the rest room and emerge as black, abaya wearing women.
It's the same in our center there. Keep in mind that it's 100% female. If I want to go in a certain area, I have to be announced and give those who wish to cover up time to do so. Occasionally, someone will be walking down a hallway and forget that I'm there. She'll see me and whoosh...cover herself up with a flourish. I always feel badly when that happens but it's their way!
They won't. What you don't seem to understand is that the people (or should I say the men) who wield the real power in Saudi Arabia honestly believe that what they are doing is right. Women in their eyes ARE inferior to men, so why should they be granted more rights? It wouldn't really be in the best interest of women to do so. It would be like granting five year olds the vote; they might want it, but they wouldn't know what to do with it if they actually managed to get it. Islam is the One True Religion, so why should they allow anyone to violate it precepts? Freedom of individual conscience isn't the supreme good, submission to the Will of God (as outlined in the Koran) is. And of course the State should enforce religious dictates; what else is the State for?
No, everyone ISN"T all the same deep down inside. The people who are running Saudi Arabia have beliefs that are both dear to them and which are completely at odds with modern Western society. That's not going to be changed by tourism.
Nazi Germany was a popular tourist destination before World War 2 despite their policy on exterminating certain groups of people like the Jews, gypsies, Communists, homosexuals, and other people seen as unfit. In fact, Berlin hosted the 1936 Summer Olympics.
Nazi Germany was a popular tourist destination before World War 2 despite their policy on exterminating certain groups of people like the Jews, gypsies, Communists, homosexuals, and other people seen as unfit. In fact, Berlin hosted the 1936 Summer Olympics.
Thank you for proving my point. Tourism did nothing to change Nazi Germany. It's not going to change Saudi Arabia either.
Nazi Germany was a popular tourist destination before World War 2 despite their policy on exterminating certain groups of people like the Jews, gypsies, Communists, homosexuals, and other people seen as unfit. In fact, Berlin hosted the 1936 Summer Olympics.
What does Germany have to this thread and by the way your timeline is off by a few years.
I can't for the life of me, understand how ANY ONE OF YOU could go there on a holiday and support ANY country that treats women so poorly, the list of which I would think you all know, that believes in FGM on little girls, that believes in marriage to girl children and can consummate a marriage at 9 years old, tells you what you can or cannot wear or how you can or cannot act.
This is barbaric and backwards.
Last edited by gouligann; 05-22-2019 at 03:59 PM..
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