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[snip]there are some people who read this forum who understand the need to balance individual rights against public safety and arrive at a happy medium.[snip]
[snip] That system that you bemoan is actually working more often than not.[snip]
[snip] What many of you constantly fail to give recognition too is that the system not only fails to convict some guilty people, but it also falsely convicts innocent people. [snip]
Judging a system by whether it works 'more often than not' is a low standard. Since most cases end in plea bargains, the system works mainly to keep cases out of court.
Do you really think 'many' don't understand that some guilty people get off and some innocent people get convicted ? Or was that just a throwaway line ?
The balance between individual rights and public safety is constantly changing. People of good intentions can disagree whether the balance is reasonable at any point in time.
As to Powell, you're probably right. Though I believe there was probable cause to arrest him, a conviction would have been tough.
This case really bothers me..I'm just hopeful the boys are with Susan now and in peace...
People can be upset with the justice system and at times I am as well.Everyone can be a "Monday Monring Quarterback" but I think the police didn't have enough evidence to arrest Josh, and unfortunatley in custody cases...well if you aren't convicted of murdering your spouse..you really cannot have your kids taken away-I read that if the judge in the custody hearing knew about the porn found on Joshs' computer, he wouldn't have granted visitation.
I keep hearing this refered to as a 'custody battle or case'. It was not a normal custody hearing between two parents.
The children were taken by DCFS. Josh Powell & 2 children were living with father Steven Powell at his residence before his arrest.
The children were placed with their maternal grandparents by DCFS.
A lot more to this when supervised visitation is necessay with a DCFS representative.
"The documents and images were recovered by police in West Valley, Utah, and sent to the Pierce County Sheriff's Department under a restrictive court order on Feb. 1, NBC station KING 5 reported. According to Washington's Department of Social and Health Services Public Affairs Senior Director Thomas Shapley, the material prompted the court to stop a process that likely would have returned Charlie, 7, and Braden, 5, to their father's custody".
Judging a system by whether it works 'more often than not' is a low standard. Since most cases end in plea bargains, the system works mainly to keep cases out of court.
FBI Crime Reports and other reputable sources document the reduction in violent crime that has occurred in the United States during the last 25 years. In short, violent crime has declined by 2/3's or roughly 66%. I don't think the system deserves all the credit for this reduction, but it certainly gets the blame when crime increases. Its time to give some credit where credit is due.
As for plea bargains, what do you propose as an alternative? Since 90% to 95% of all cases are currently plea bargained, do you think the taxpayers should pay to increase the number of judges and courts by tenfold? If cases are all going to have to go to trial than that is going to be the result.
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Do you really think 'many' don't understand that some guilty people get off and some innocent people get convicted ? Or was that just a throwaway line ?
I'm not sure what the "average" person really thinks. The truth is though that innocent people do go to jail regularly under our system. I seldom hear any concern expressed about it either. A disproportionate number of these people are poor and minorities. They are the kind of people that middle class America is more than willing to "throw under the bus". Than, when a mistake is made everyone tends to go "oh well, woops....". Why do we act that way? Because implicitly or explicitly some people are regarded as "disposable" by society.
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The balance between individual rights and public safety is constantly changing. People of good intentions can disagree whether the balance is reasonable at any point in time.
I totally agree with this. In the real, practical world allowances have to be made for the fact that such balances do change. If I lived in Mexico (which thankfully I do not) the violence from drug cartels is so extreme, I would probably support the fact that military has large sections of that country under "martial law".
Now, consider what you have just said against the fact that in the last 25 years in America, the FBI Uniform Crime Reports demonstrate that violent crime has decreased by 66%. In your mind, what conclusion are you lead too? Should individual rights and liberties be less of a concern or should public safety be less of a concern? I would say the balance should remain where it is. You certainly have little case to make for further eroding individual liberties and giving greater weight to public safety considerations in that climate.
There are people out there who will make statements like "crime statistics are a fraud, blah blah blah". If that's your position, be prepared to offer some proof or be prepared to have that opinion disregarded.
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As to Powell, you're probably right. Though I believe there was probable cause to arrest him, a conviction would have been tough.
I have raised children myself and if anyone thinks I don't take what happened here very seriously they are quite mistaken. The flip side of this coin are the thousands/millions of parents, particularly fathers, involved in divorce and child custody cases right now. The system has to demand real proof, evidence of actual wrongdoing to protect all the parents involved in this process. Allegations of physical and sexual abuse of children are easily made. I have seen plenty of spiteful people in my day who were completely capable of inventing the worst lies and fabrications about an ex spouse. In laws can be just as bad and often are complicit in these matters.
There are legitimate points to be made here that Powell's visitation could have taken place in a supervised location. However, if that's true how many other fathers are you going to demand that of? Do enough physical facilities even exist for supervised visitation on this scale? What about the dad's who can't afford the gasoline to drive twenty miles and back to the DCFS office? All of these factors are considerations that DCFS and its agents have to make everyday. The people on this forum have the benefit of hindsight. The caseworkers, judges, and others did not.
Finally, I'm sure the 911 could have done a better job responding. However, given how quickly a house soaked with gasoline goes up in flames (explodes), I doubt that made any difference.
[snip]There are legitimate points to be made here that Powell's visitation could have taken place in a supervised location. However, if that's true how many other fathers are you going to demand that of? Do enough physical facilities even exist for supervised visitation on this scale? What about the dad's who can't afford the gasoline to drive twenty miles and back to the DCFS office? All of these factors are considerations that DCFS and its agents have to make everyday. The people on this forum have the benefit of hindsight. The caseworkers, judges, and others did not.
Finally, I'm sure the 911 could have done a better job responding. However, given how quickly a house soaked with gasoline goes up in flames (explodes), I doubt that made any difference.
I want to respond to your comments about the system and crime rates, but sticking to the Powell case...
I'd say as a general rule any parent who's been ordered by a court-appointed psych and a judge to undergo a psycho-sexual evaluation and a polygraph test shouldn't have the children at his house. That's in addition to prior strange behavior.
There are legitimate points to be made here that Powell's visitation could have taken place in a supervised location.
However, if that's true how many other fathers are you going to demand that of?
Do enough physical facilities even exist for supervised visitation on this scale? What about the dad's who can't afford the gasoline to drive twenty miles and back to the DCFS office?
All of these factors are considerations that DCFS and its agents have to make everyday. The people on this forum have the benefit of hindsight. The caseworkers, judges, and others did not.
Other states can and do.
There are states that provide or arrange transportation.
I always wonder about cases like this, where the husband kills the wife, what was the marriage dynamic? At what point did the wife think she was in danger? If at all, was it just random, for some reason the husband kills the wife with no appearent warning? Are there signs someone should look out for? I believe I read something about men who kill their wives are very controlling, things like this scare me...
Young people should have education regarding domestic violence, signs of abusers, and how to identify a potential abuser, and how to get away, maybe something like a program that does education at schools for assemblies or something.
Me, too. I always think do these wives know that their husbands are very unstable? Or, do they see just a look in their eyes that's pause for consideration? If you're with someone day in and out, do you see or choose not to see who this person is? Or, are these men smooth operators, real Jeckyl and Hides?
Me, too. I always think do these wives know that their husbands are very unstable? Or, do they see just a look in their eyes that's pause for consideration? If you're with someone day in and out, do you see or choose not to see who this person is? Or, are these men smooth operators, real Jeckyl and Hides?
I don't think there's a "one size fits all" when it comes to domestic abuse.
My ex husband was abusive. When we were going through the divorce, I tried to get supervised visitation for him and was told that "just because a man abuses his wife doesn't mean he will abuse his children." I asked, "Does that mean we have to wait for something to happen before we can get supervised visitation?" The answer was something along the lines of "pretty much."
Luckily, my ex never did abuse the kids but they were intimidated by him, nonetheless. I think they still are and they are 22, 21, and 16.
I'm not sure what the "average" person really thinks. The truth is though that innocent people do go to jail regularly under our system. I seldom hear any concern expressed about it either. A disproportionate number of these people are poor and minorities. They are the kind of people that middle class America is more than willing to "throw under the bus". Than, when a mistake is made everyone tends to go "oh well, woops ....". Why do we act that way? Because implicitly or explicitly some people are regarded as "disposable" by society.
Average person here typing ... innocent people may go to jail ... but the guilty often walk free.
I am sure the majority of the average people posting on True Crime have no desire whatsoever to see an innocent person incarcerated.
As to the Powell case he is dead, his wife is dead and two beautiful little boys are dead. He killed them that is a fact ... perhaps there is no evidence that he killed Susan but he certainly is guilty of killing his two sons.
After Susan Powell disappeared her family was not allowed (by Josh) to see the two boys for over a year. After Josh moved in with his alleged (to meet your Law 101 requirements I am using alleged) perverted father that is when Susan's parents received custody of the two boys.
The case worker couldn't do one thing, Powell had his plan in place and carried it out. If whatever was on his computer had been handled in a different manner perhaps the outcome would be different ... but that is hindsight. I just hurt for Susan's family losing their daughter and grandsons.
I still think Josh Powells father played a role in a triangle or 'mentally constructed triangle' contributing to Susan Powells death.
RIP Susan Powell and sons.
Agreed, but the other set of grandparents didn't see danger where it was either. It doesn't occur to honest people how murderers and thieves think, and so they wind up vulnerable for what amounts to be the crime of being virtuous in America. I have reason to believe Josh was blind to his own father and his motive for murdering his sons and himself was about shame that ran right through his core. What he had allowed himself to become that he couldn't bear to face. Like Bernie Madeoffs son committing suicide after spending so many years mindlessly tagging behind his Papa's misdeeds.
This misrepresentation system in our language has been going on longer than I've been around, but more obviously to me in the 60's during so much social upheaval. Therein lies the nutter arguments going back and forth between well intended hippies and well intended conservatives of that era. The media decided Charles Manson defined hippies, and decided religion was intrinsically evil. Truth is these labels were (and continue to be) equally blind to evil in plain sight. Therein lies a very painful lesson my Catholic faith is being tasked to learn. Don't close your eyes & bite your tongues, folks. We can't afford that indulgence.
Preventing victimization requires we all be educated & cultivate self defense (spiritually, psychologically, and physically). Preventing predators from getting by on murder requires an empowered legal/ LE system. When we continue to remain blind and ignorant about what evil looks like, predators get hired as CPS, lawyers, judges and cops.
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I just can not believe that. I am gobsmacked. See, God saved them. 
IMHO.
