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Is there a particular reason why Tucson never initiated a plan to build more freeways as Phoenix has done over the pat 10-20 years?
While Tucson hasn't grown as much as Phoenix has over the past 20 years, would it have not been possible to build an interstate criss-crossing the city from west to east, which would then curve to the south & join I-10 southeast of the city, perhaps running parallel to Houghton Rd. or Kolb Rd. or somewhere in between them?
First, as far as I can tell, there's never been a genuine, serious decision made on the part of Tucson city leaders that they want this to be a "city" in the sense of true urbanity. They allowed Tucson to grow generically without any master plan that would shape the growth in any particular way. Growth occurred because one developer had the investment dollars and the will to put a project here and another had the wherewithal to put another project there. But they're not connected -- and no one is in charge to get that to happen. It's exacerbated by the fact that most of the contemporary development takes place in suburban Pima Co., outside the jurisdiction of City of Tucson government.
Second, I think that most of the people who live here really don't WANT growth -- they want some of the niceties that come with it (entertainment, restaurants, higher-class shopping), but they don't want to sacrifice anything that already exists (no matter how lacking in quality that may be) in order to establish those things in any master-planned way.
Most cities that have developed in a sophisticated way had a strong leader at the helm who demanded a plan for the future and forced it to be adhered to. The libertarian Southwest inherently distrusts government -- and those effective leaders who spearhead successful growth tend to be government officials. Tucson, therefore, has never had that strong leadership and is unlikely to get it in the near future. That's why Rio Nuevo failed so spectacularly.
Every Tom, Dick, and Harry (read "rich white male real estate developers") has a voice and the idea that some of the money should come to them. But the whole group never bought into a master plan and no one person had the power to take over and force what planning that was done to come to fruition. Power shifted, minds changed every five minutes, and the money was frittered away on "studies." Even when infrastructure is completed (e.g. The Fox Tucson Theatre), no one can agree on how it will be used to the best advantage. Everyone's in charge and no one's in charge. Whomever waves the largest denomination dollars wins that week. It's the very real downside of libertarianism.
The federal government builds interstates, not local or state government; I assume you just mean a freeway. I agree with Jukesgrrl that unlike Maricopa County, Pima County and Tucson has never had any entity focusing on long range plans for moving traffic on freeways, etc. I don't know where you are suggesting that it should have been put on the west-east part, but there's really no way to do it now, that I can see, without massive condemnation costs on top of the massive construction costs.
jukesgirl and observr, you would both be quite wrong regarding long range plans on tucson transportation needs. there have been many over the years since the late 60s. the problem isnt the government not wanting to build the freeways, the problem is that the people dont want the freeway system other cities have.
I love that Tucson has no freeways. And I'm a guy that loves freeways. I lived in Houston for many years and had a keen interest in that city's transportation infrastructure. THAT is a freeway city!
But how necessary would another freeway be here, honestly? We're surrounded by mountains and undevelopable land (national parks, national forests, the Tohono O'Odham Nation), so any freeway is going to go, at the most, ten miles in a set direction and then just stop.
Additionally, I don't care what people living here say, the traffic is just not that bad. I've been living in Atlanta (Atlanta sucks) for a little over two months now, and it's just made me appreciate all the more how well Tucson traffic is managed because they do a horrendous job here.
Freeways also encourage sprawl and effective abandonment of neighborhoods as people flee for further, newer regions but never come back. There are areas of Midtown that have remained nice neighborhoods over the years probably almost solely because there is no freeway going east. Ever been out to Tanque Verde and thought, "Wow, what a nice, rural farming community on the edge of the city!"? Tanque Verde is the way it is because there was never a freeway built.
If you like the way Phoenix has developed, then live there. I think it sucks. Look at Maryvale. There's a reason they call it "Scaryvale" but, you know what, it used to be a nice neighborhood and a lot of that has to do with its location right next to a freeway: as soon as it started going downhill, people shot further west and no one ever came back. And it's not just the West Valley. There are sections of Mesa and Gilbert where the same thing happened.
It's become annoying and cliche to benchmark Portland, but, the fact is, most people in Tucson, at least those heavily involved in planning, want Tucson to be like Portland. Portland, years ago, just stopped building and expanding freeways and invested in public transit. That, in turn, forced infill and people to move into less desirable neighborhoods, but also to create walkable and more desirable (by today's standards) communities. Gentrification? Maybe, but I'd rather have that than what's happened in Phoenix.
On the gentrification versus Phoenix front, I think Tucson's done a fantastic job. The way things are headed, once we move away from this housing thing, I think Tucson poised to become a really desirable city. This recent media attention has really sort of spoiled the secret.
And this idea that Tucson has no freeways because of a lack of foresight is just stupid. Google "Tucson freeway plan" and read the history and check out the maps from the 50's and 60's. That ridiculous Aviation Parkway we have is all that survived from a massive freeway plan that included several loops and spurs (including one right down Speedway), but was all pushed out by neighborhood opposition. The Barrio Freeway was the big one.
I love that Tucson has no freeways. And I'm a guy that loves freeways. I lived in Houston for many years and had a keen interest in that city's transportation infrastructure. THAT is a freeway city!
But how necessary would another freeway be here, honestly? We're surrounded by mountains and undevelopable land (national parks, national forests, the Tohono O'Odham Nation), so any freeway is going to go, at the most, ten miles in a set direction and then just stop.
Additionally, I don't care what people living here say, the traffic is just not that bad. I've been living in Atlanta (Atlanta sucks) for a little over two months now, and it's just made me appreciate all the more how well Tucson traffic is managed because they do a horrendous job here.
Freeways also encourage sprawl and effective abandonment of neighborhoods as people flee for further, newer regions but never come back. There are areas of Midtown that have remained nice neighborhoods over the years probably almost solely because there is no freeway going east. Ever been out to Tanque Verde and thought, "Wow, what a nice, rural farming community on the edge of the city!"? Tanque Verde is the way it is because there was never a freeway built.
If you like the way Phoenix has developed, then live there. I think it sucks. Look at Maryvale. There's a reason they call it "Scaryvale" but, you know what, it used to be a nice neighborhood and a lot of that has to do with its location right next to a freeway: as soon as it started going downhill, people shot further west and no one ever came back. And it's not just the West Valley. There are sections of Mesa and Gilbert where the same thing happened.
It's become annoying and cliche to benchmark Portland, but, the fact is, most people in Tucson, at least those heavily involved in planning, want Tucson to be like Portland. Portland, years ago, just stopped building and expanding freeways and invested in public transit. That, in turn, forced infill and people to move into less desirable neighborhoods, but also to create walkable and more desirable (by today's standards) communities. Gentrification? Maybe, but I'd rather have that than what's happened in Phoenix.
On the gentrification versus Phoenix front, I think Tucson's done a fantastic job. The way things are headed, once we move away from this housing thing, I think Tucson poised to become a really desirable city. This recent media attention has really sort of spoiled the secret.
And this idea that Tucson has no freeways because of a lack of foresight is just stupid. Google "Tucson freeway plan" and read the history and check out the maps from the 50's and 60's. That ridiculous Aviation Parkway we have is all that survived from a massive freeway plan that included several loops and spurs (including one right down Speedway), but was all pushed out by neighborhood opposition. The Barrio Freeway was the big one.
Portland is the worse mess of traffic I have ever seen for a city with only 586,00. The traffic is so bad its as if 5 million are trying to get around this little big city. Thats coming from someone from the Boston area. Much of the probem is georgraphy and politics. Rivers and hills and a crowded densely packed in city. Refusal to build a beltway. The area is not really designed very well. It has been allowed to give the impression it is the model city and it really is not. The public transit hasn't made a dent on the traffic, because so many natives don't use it. Its people like me from big cities back east that use it. Or the many homeless and down and out types that ride it for a free ride.
Maybe Tucson is better off without all the fwy's I really don't know.
Of course I did mean freeways instead of highways; as a resident of Los Angeles, I really blew that one!!!
Great assortment of answers---thanks to all of you; I recently visited your fine city in mid-October and had a wonderful time visiting a buddy of mine who moved there last summer after 60+ years in SoCal.
Chad's Steakhouse & Sam Hughes Place were both great restaurants, and the Skybox is a terrific sports bar.
Short of slicing the city in half with another freeway from west to east (with the off-ramps and more retail establishments that would undoubtedly spring up), the sentiment that Tucson's leaders didn't want to become a megalopolis a la Phoenix or LA makes plenty of sense.
jukesgirl and observr, you would both be quite wrong regarding long range plans on tucson transportation needs. there have been many over the years since the late 60s. the problem isnt the government not wanting to build the freeways, the problem is that the people dont want the freeway system other cities have.
I'll stand corrected, thanks. If it was offered them and they don't want to pay for it, that's their choice, and they live with the traffic patterns they have.
jukesgirl and observr, you would both be quite wrong regarding long range plans on tucson transportation needs. there have been many over the years since the late 60s. the problem isnt the government not wanting to build the freeways, the problem is that the people dont want the freeway system other cities have.
And that's one of several reasons why I like Phoenix over Tucson and why I moved from Tucson to Phoenix.
There are several options for freeways:
-From the I-10 just south of River Rd along the Rillito to Pantano Wash (I think that's what it's called) then down towards Vail where it could connect back to the I-10.
-Aviation Hwy could be made into a freeway, conecting to the I-10 on both ends.
-Rita Rd and I-10 cutting across to the I-19 just south of the airport.
-Ajo Hwy west from I-19
-Tangerine Rd from I-10 east to Hwy 77.
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