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Old 03-01-2011, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 23,272,967 times
Reputation: 15264

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America's 51st state: Baja Arizona? - U.S. news - Life - msnbc.com

You know, I read things like this, and I really begin to question the wisdom of relocating to Tucson. It's not so much the possibility of Pima County actually seceding from the state -- that is obviously not going to happen. No, what I find so disheartening is the level of hatred between the two sides in the partisan debate over illegal immigration in Arizona.

As an outsider, I would really like to know the truth of things in Arizona. Is the state being overrun with illegal immigrants who are choking the schools and other institutions with undocumented recipients of public services, raising the crime rate, and bankrupting the state? Or are a bunch of right-wing fanatics wildly exaggerating the situation, and just using undocumented Mexicans as scapegoats for their own greed and poor governance?

If the former is true, why are progressives pretending that it's not? If the latter is the case, why didn't the former Democratic governor do something about it -- and how can Republicans be so heartless as to lie about it?

I'd appreciate straight answers. Personal attacks on other posters, or obviously exaggerated or inflammatory statements will be ignored.

PM me if you prefer.

Thanks.
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:54 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
532 posts, read 1,128,903 times
Reputation: 568
I think the 'truth' of the matter lies somewhere in between your 2 theories honestly.
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:01 AM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 23,272,967 times
Reputation: 15264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie2 View Post
I think the 'truth' of the matter lies somewhere in between your 2 theories honestly.
Could you expand on that? I really would like to know an Arizonans` opinion. Other folks from outside your state might, also.

Thanks.
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:08 AM
 
Location: Metro Phoenix, AZ USA
17,876 posts, read 41,059,705 times
Reputation: 10633
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subie2 View Post
I think the 'truth' of the matter lies somewhere in between your 2 theories honestly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Could you expand on that? I really would like to know an Arizonans` opinion. Other folks from outside your state might, also.

Thanks.
Like pretty much every other request for an opinion on any issue about Arizona on this or any other forum, the extremes are to be taken with a large grain of salt. And what you are asking for is actually not the truth, but people's opinions of what the "truth" is.

Everyone's opinion of the "truth" on this issue, across the whole spectrum, is just that, an opinion. No one can or should base their decision on whether to move anywhere, or what the "truth" is, on what they read on a forum like this.

I'm tired of the polarization on this issue (and others) too (and not just in Arizona, but on a national level)-- so much so that I don't enjoy discussing it. So, I'm just giving you some perspective on the answers you are likely to get.

Last edited by observer53; 03-02-2011 at 09:08 AM..
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Old 03-02-2011, 05:41 AM
 
444 posts, read 1,289,416 times
Reputation: 423
It's really not the place for it, unfortunately. There are plenty of other forums where (probably this one, at some point, actually) where immigration in Arizona has been exhaustively discussed. It's problematic because, at some point, one extreme will come out, the other will respond, and then it just devolves into tirades and, by page 83, it's gone into something totally unrelated.
I will say that it's something that is a huge problem, but has no easy answers and will not be fixed (although helped is up for argument) by any of the band-aid solutions that have been proposed by the feds or the state.

Sensationalism works both ways. The corporate media really got into this for a while but seems to have moved on to other things. It'll come back at some point, and our state will, unfortunately, be thrust into this limelight again.
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Tucson
42,835 posts, read 85,114,441 times
Reputation: 22814
Obviously, that's not going to fly. Even putting it on the ballot is ridiculous. While I'm perfectly OK with the AZ bill seeking secession from the union in case marshal law is established, Pima County seceding from the rest of Arizona (heck, they may dream even of joining Sonora and start the NAU here ) is quite half-baked idea that I can’t see happening in any near future (unless NAU becomes a reality for us all... ).
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:16 PM
 
Location: Southern Arizona
532 posts, read 1,128,903 times
Reputation: 568
Observer53 is on point with my views.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
135 posts, read 325,438 times
Reputation: 169
I agree with most of the above sentiments - wow. The truth is somewhere in between the two. Phoenix has a lot more political power than Tucson, so this is just one way to get attention.

In general, Americans want easy answers to tough issues and that just doesn't happen. So our "debate" degenerates into name calling and polarization. Don't think, just shout. It's not just an Arizona problem, either.

Actually, I'm in favor of creating a Baja Arizona - but only if we can annex Rocky Point and San Carlos.
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Old 03-02-2011, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Tucson
42,835 posts, read 85,114,441 times
Reputation: 22814
Quote:
Originally Posted by swbell6 View Post
Actually, I'm in favor of creating a Baja Arizona - but only if we can annex Rocky Point and San Carlos.
Not a bad idea... provided we learn to like eating cacti!
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 23,272,967 times
Reputation: 15264
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeftinTucson View Post
It's a little bit of both, I'm afraid. Yes, there are many Mexicans living in Tucson, both documented and undocumented. Yes, the City struggles with the issues you mentioned stemming from undocumented/illegal immigrants. However, these illegal immigrants are NOT overrunning the City. Arizona does not need more laws to combat the problems, just consistent and persistent enforcement of the laws that already exist for a civilized society. All the noise you here in the news is actually about enforcing our laws or not.
Thanks for your thoughts. (I am not sure why the old-timers on the Forum are more reluctant to share their views. I respect their reticence, though.)

I guess a follow-up question from me might be -- why would people be opposed to enforcing the law? Or is that too innocent of a query?

p.s. Sounds like you`re originally from Jersey. That`s where I was born and raised. Exit 5.
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