Az-201 (attorneys, home, buyers)

[michael krotchie]

Hmm I wonder why I wasn't receiving email updates to this thread..

Couple of ways to look at Prop 201. If it is passed, builders will just raise costs to justify expenses, costs which you then pay interest on for that 30 year mortgage, so a $2000 bump will end up being a bazillion dollars over the life of your loan.

Like I said, the concept is a good one but the current draft is flawed. Not enough safeguards to prevent abuse or address important concerns.

[Home_Kid]

Originally Posted by michael krotchie

Hmm I wonder why I wasn't receiving email updates to this thread..

Couple of ways to look at Prop 201. If it is passed, builders will just raise costs to justify expenses, costs which you then pay interest on for that 30 year mortgage, so a $2000 bump will end up being a bazillion dollars over the life of your loan.

Like I said, the concept is a good one but the current draft is flawed. Not enough safeguards to prevent abuse or address important concerns.

the housing market will no longer tolerate over inflated home prices. in general, any $ borrowed at 6.5% fixed for 30yrs will cost you 100%. so $2k borrowed will cost $2k. and even if the builder does raise the price by $2k, that diff in the payment over 30yrs is almost nothing, well worth the rights i get from AZ-201 !!

you have a valid argument, but i think its a real weak argument.
cheers

[michael krotchie]

Originally Posted by Home_Kid

the housing market will no longer tolerate over inflated home prices. in general, any $ borrowed at 6.5% fixed for 30yrs will cost you 100%. so $2k borrowed will cost $2k.

you have a valid argument, but i think its a real weak argument.
cheers

Here is an amortization table:

$200,000 loan @ 6.5% rate, 30 year fixed
Total Repaid: $455086.00
Total Interest Paid: $255086.00
Interest as percentage of Principal: 127.543%

$202,000 loan @ 6.5% rate, 30 year fixed
Total Repaid: $459640.80
Total Interest Paid: $257640.80
Interest as percentage of Principal: 127.545%

So with an assumed $2000 price increase it's a nearly $5000 repayment. Not sure where you got your calculation from.

Opposing Arguments

• Prop. 201 will prohibit two parties from agreeing to resolve their disputes without going to court and hiring attorneys.
  
• Prop 201 will forbid the defendants from recovering any attorney's fees, even if the case was frivolous or if they win.
  
• Prop. 201 will allow prospective buyers to file lawsuits. They will not even have to own the home to file a lawsuit.
  
• Prop 201 assures that all disputes, either large or small, go to court, raising costs for everyone.

Do you truly not have any reservations about the areas noted above? If I was to vote "Yes" for Prop 201 it would need to address the prevention of frivolous lawsuits and lack of arbitration steps before I even considered it.

Originally Posted by Home_Kid

but please, if you havent bought a new build home in the last two years please PLEASE talk to folks who have, and then you'll understand why we need AZ-201 to pass.

And I have bought a new home within the last few years, a Pulte built home.

[Home_Kid]

ah, my #'s were off top of my head. my loan at 6.5% 30yr fixed will cost me just over 100% to finance. but in your example, $5k over 30yr loan is nothing in the payment !!! well worth it for the rights i would get from AZ-201 !!! however, i think you are dead wrong about higher home prices because of 201. the housing market will no longer tolerate overvalued homes.

why should HB's be exempt from the court system? no other business is.

a "large" or "small" dispute is subject to interpretation. is the bathroom mirror that has been sitting in my hallway for over a week now because Pulte had to replace a whole bathroom cabinet considered "small" or "large"? for me this is a BIG issue, but i am tolerant and wont file a lawsuit and will just wait for the mirror guy to come back. let the home buyers decide what is "large" or "small" issue, and let the home buyers decide whether or not the court system is the proper route to take, just like they would with any other issue with any other business !!!

from the feedback that i am getting, looks like AZ-201 is gonna pass this Nov.

Originally Posted by michael krotchie

Here is an amortization table:

$200,000 loan @ 6.5% rate, 30 year fixed
Total Repaid: $455086.00
Total Interest Paid: $255086.00
Interest as percentage of Principal: 127.543%

$202,000 loan @ 6.5% rate, 30 year fixed
Total Repaid: $459640.80
Total Interest Paid: $257640.80
Interest as percentage of Principal: 127.545%

So with an assumed $2000 price increase it's a nearly $5000 repayment. Not sure where you got your calculation from.

Opposing Arguments

• Prop. 201 will prohibit two parties from agreeing to resolve their disputes without going to court and hiring attorneys.
  
• Prop 201 will forbid the defendants from recovering any attorney's fees, even if the case was frivolous or if they win.
  
• Prop. 201 will allow prospective buyers to file lawsuits. They will not even have to own the home to file a lawsuit.
  
• Prop 201 assures that all disputes, either large or small, go to court, raising costs for everyone.

Do you truly not have any reservations about the areas noted above? If I was to vote "Yes" for Prop 201 it would need to address the prevention of frivolous lawsuits and lack of arbitration steps before I even considered it.



And I have bought a new home within the last few years, a Pulte built home.

[michael krotchie]

Originally Posted by Home_Kid

... let the home buyers decide what is "large" or "small" issue, and let the home buyers decide whether or not the court system is the proper route to take, just like they would with any other issue with any other business !!!

from the feedback that i am getting, looks like AZ-201 is gonna pass this Nov.

Placing too much power in the hands of the public (the way the proposition is currently written), WILL result in abuse and waste.

We'll have to wait and see what happens, and on a side note, I received my ballot in the mail yesterday.

[Home_Kid]

wow, looks like the HB's are making some contributions this election year. i just received in the mail a big print of why you should vote no on az-201.

all they did was twist the words around, and not clearly explain how things are now.

as example, it says:
Now: allows parties to use less costly mediation and dispute resolution to resolve complaints and avoid paying lawyers.


WHAT!!?? thats a bunch of poop. how it is now is the HB's write into their contract the use of binding arbitration (no choice, you must agree or the HB will cancel your contract). the HB will hire good/pricely lawyers, and if you lose it is you the home buyer that has to pay for those lawyers. the odds are against you going into the battle. it is simply not fair and wrong.

so dont believe the "say no" propaganda poop coming into your mailbox.

September 16, 2008:
The opposition to proposition 201 has found its angle. They’re calling themselves “Arizonans against lawsuit abuse," acknowledging the fact that the measure would let homeowners sue without fear of having to pay a builder’s legal fees if they lose

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by michael krotchie

Opposing Arguments

• Prop. 201 will prohibit two parties from agreeing to resolve their disputes without going to court and hiring attorneys.
  
• Prop 201 will forbid the defendants from recovering any attorney's fees, even if the case was frivolous or if they win.
  
• Prop. 201 will allow prospective buyers to file lawsuits. They will not even have to own the home to file a lawsuit.
  
• Prop 201 assures that all disputes, either large or small, go to court, raising costs for everyone.

Thank you, Michael. That's exactly the gist of what I heard on the radio in some store, but didn't quite retain. I don't think I like it, either...

[Home_Kid]

Originally Posted by sierraAZ

Thank you, Michael. That's exactly the gist of what I heard on the radio in some store, but didn't quite retain. I don't think I like it, either...

hold on.

let me make this clear. there is currently no option to agree to have disputes settled outside of court !!! the HB's demand you agree to binding arbitration and they get to choose the arbitrator !! NO OPTION, NONE. if you dont agree they wont sell you the home. choosing court is a better option, makes the playing field even.



Specifically, the 201 calls for (basic rights here folks):

• A 10-year warranty on a new home's materials and workmanship;
• Extending the statute of limitations for bringing a court action to 10 years from eight;
• Giving an aggrieved homeowner the right to choose among three contractors with complaint-free records to fix any repairs that might be needed in the home;
• Rewriting the rules on attorney fees; homeowners could sue without worry of being held responsible for builders' attorney costs.
• Gives buyers the right to cancel within 100 days and get back most of their deposits

the no sayers can argue all they want about how bad the bill is, but i can tell you 10,000 reasons why new home buyers deserve these basic rights.

September 16, 2008:
The opposition to proposition 201 has found its angle. They’re calling themselves “Arizonans against lawsuit abuse," acknowledging the fact that the measure would let homeowners sue without fear of having to pay a builder’s legal fees if they lose

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by Home_Kid

hold on.

let me make this clear. there is currently no option to agree to have disputes settled outside of court !!! the HB's demand you agree to binding arbitration and they get to choose the arbitrator !! NO OPTION, NONE. if you dont agree they wont sell you the home. choosing court is a better option, makes the playing field even.



Specifically, the 201 calls for (basic rights here folks):

• A 10-year warranty on a new home's materials and workmanship;
• Extending the statute of limitations for bringing a court action to 10 years from eight;
• Giving an aggrieved homeowner the right to choose among three contractors with complaint-free records to fix any repairs that might be needed in the home;
• Rewriting the rules on attorney fees; homeowners could sue without worry of being held responsible for builders' attorney costs.
• Gives buyers the right to cancel within 100 days and get back most of their deposits

the no sayers can argue all they want about how bad the bill is, but i can tell you 10,000 reasons why new home buyers deserve these basic rights.

September 16, 2008:
The opposition to proposition 201 has found its angle. They’re calling themselves “Arizonans against lawsuit abuse," acknowledging the fact that the measure would let homeowners sue without fear of having to pay a builder’s legal fees if they lose

Well, if this is the case

Prop. 201 will prohibit two parties from agreeing to resolve their disputes without going to court and hiring attorneys.

it makes no sense to me. If somebody wants to "help" me and "protect" me they will make suing the builders easier on me, but will NOT prohibit peaceful settlement... I might misunderstand something... The props are always written in lawyer language the sole purpose of which is to confuse people and I'm sure many don't really end up voting for the outcome they actually wanted.

[michael krotchie]

2008 Ballot Propositions & Judicial Performance Review

A Con Argument

Although the title of this proposition says homeowners "bill" of rights, the only " bill" you will see is an increase in your legal "bills" if this passes. The title is misleading and affords homeowners fewer rights than the laws that are currently in place in Arizona.

In 2003, I successfully sponsored the "Notice to Cure" legislation. It was a good law then and it is a good law now. The goal was to resolve disputes quickly so people could get on with their lives. The law is working well.

Prior to its passage, most construction defect claims ended up in court where builders and homeowners spent years and thousands of dollars trying to figure out who was at fault.

Under the "Notice to Cure" law, a fair and reasonable process was established. The homeowner notifies the builder that there is a defect and the builder has ninety days to fix the problem. In addition, there is an alternative mediation process that homeowners can take advantage of to reach quick settlements without going to court. This saves time and money.

With Proposition 201, these provisions are gone. Litigation is the only option. To makes matters even worse, they eliminate the "Loser Pays Court Fees" statutes. Without that statute, lawyers are encouraged to go to court. Everyone loses except the attorneys.

The "Notice to Cure" statute is good public policy. Consumer satisfaction is at an all time high while attorney payouts are at an all time low. More importantly, people can get on with their lives and enjoy their new homes.

Don't let out- of -state groups tear down solid Arizona laws. Vote "no" on proposition 201.

Senator Barbara Leff, District 11, Phoenix

Paid for by "Barbara Leff"

Home_Kid have you tried going the Notice to Cure route?