Enough complaints, how 'bout some answers? (Phoenix, Tucson: how much, homes, preschool)

[Rich_CD]

Tucson is a nice area with growth potential. So, what would it take to make Tucson a top-notch technology region?

[rbohm]

elimination of a lot of excessive city and county regulation, and lowering taxes.

[Jukesgrrl]

Tucson is going to continue having trouble attracting any business with an educated workforce as long as our state's public schools have such a terrible reputation. When corporate executives announce to their employees that they are being moved to a new location, they want to tell them how much they will love the new area. That conversation cannot include the sentence, "But you will want to start looking for a private school for your kids."

I've lived in five states prior to moving here and can tell you that nationwide Arizona has a reputation for inferior schools. Even the state's universities have -- deservedly or not -- a reputation for partying far more than academics. This doesn't bother retirees; they are, for the most part, finished educating their children. But corporations that assume their employees' children need to focus on education are unlikely to place Arizona at the top of their list of expansion sites.

Don't take my word for how poorly we're doing. Look at the Digest of Education Statistics:
Total and current expenditures per pupil in fall enrollment in public elementary and secondary education, by function and state or jurisdiction: 2005–06
"Current expenditures per pupil" for 2005-06 school year show Arizona spending $6,515. That's less than is spent in Alabama ($7,683) or Mississippi ($7,173)! For comparison, the U.S. average is $9,154.

Compare our spending to states with reputations for high-tech business. In spite of a high cost of living and bad weather, Massachusetts ($12,564) and New York state ($14,614) continue to attract the cream of the attractive business crop. The only state known for green/tech businesses that spends comparably to Arizona is Washington ($7,984).

And look at our drop-out rate: 10.5% of our students drop out of high school -- the highest rate in the nation according to YouthNoise.com. That's a shameful statistic and one that attracts plenty of negative attention.

This state will continue a downward spiral if our citizenry doesn't take a long hard look at what our lack of willingness to promote and pay for good education is doing to us.

[Jukesgrrl]

Originally Posted by rbohm

elimination of a lot of excessive city and county regulation, and lowering taxes.

I would agree that the City of Tucson puts a lot of arcane regulation on small businesses that make it hard for someone to open a small business (retail for instance). But I was under the impression that the OP was asking about high-tech, green, or information/knowledge-based corporate businesses that would bring growth to the region.

Could you give me an example of some regulations that Pima County has that wouldn't be found in most other areas of the country? Compared to the other states, Arizona has a reputation of being fairly libertarian in relationship to business. For instance, White Plains, New York (Westchester Co.), is an area that has a recent reputation for attracting some very lucrative corporations. What kind of regulations and taxes do you suppose we have that they don't?

[keith talent]

Jukesgrrl, I don't know anything about Arizona's public schools (excepting my brief time at U of A way back when), but I don't think anybody would want to go down the road of emulating New York's. One thing New York, with its suffocating taxes, generally considered the highest in the nation, is good at is WASTING money. Unbelievable amounts, for instance, are spent on apparently bogus special ed needs; in some areas 30% of the students "require" this. The dropout rate in NYC is nearly 50% ... and NYC has 50% of the state's population. The suburbs of NYC (you mentioned White Plains) have obscene property tax rates to support their high-rated schools ... people commonly pay $800 to $900 a month for the privilege. Imagine having that on top of a typical home price of 600K+ for ordinary, sub-2000-square-foot homes. Farther upstate ... they've been in a recession for the past 40 years, more or less. Schools can't be helping much!

Just saying ... be careful what you wish for!

[Jukesgrrl]

Originally Posted by keith talent

Just saying ... be careful what you wish for!

I hear you ... I used to live in New Jersey. But you can't ignore the fact that the pathetically low amount of money spent here per student, and the complete unwillingness of the populace to admit that this is tied to the drop-out and illiteracy rates, is a factor in the terrible reputation Arizona has related to education.

What state that wants to attract top-notch corporations can be content with being consistently compared to Alabama and Mississippi in a slew of categories?

[rbohm]

Mod Cut: Post quoting deleted.


jukesgirl, part of the problem with both the city and county is when a business, big or small, buys a piece of property to set up here, both the city and the county require a long process of planning, surveys, more planning, the requirement that businesses produce a number of engineering plans that all have to be checked out before any of them are approved, etc. and the business have to pay for all this. one businessman mentioned during an interview what it cost him to set up a new business here, and how long it took. he bought a piece of property that cost him $4.2 million, then had to go through all the red tape required. had to submit five different plans for the property, and it took two years for the governments to authorize the original plan. the cost of this was $750,000, and during the time these plans were under review, the bank which the guy had his financing arraigned with went out of business, which means he had to delay his plans again until such time as he could arraign new financing.

if the review time for these plans could be cut to a reasonable period of time, say 3 months, that would be a substantial cost savings to the business, and make the environment more business friendly. by the way he also mentioned that his property taxes were $58,000. not bad for his property, and wasnt complaining about the taxes.

[keith talent]

Originally Posted by Jukesgrrl

I hear you ... I used to live in New Jersey. But you can't ignore the fact that the pathetically low amount of money spent here per student, and the complete unwillingness of the populace to admit that this is tied to the drop-out and illiteracy rates, is a factor in the terrible reputation Arizona has related to education.

What state that wants to attract top-notch corporations can be content with being consistently compared to Alabama and Mississippi in a slew of categories?

Hah, I also escaped from Jersey. But ... think for a second about what it means to "attract top-notch corporations" and have the kind of "high-achieving" schools that prepare kids for the kind of rat-race life such corporations offer. It's not all so wonderful. Succeed or fail, it's often a one-way ticket to the shrink and whatever happy pills he can dispense. We're not necessarily doing our kids a favor by pushing them in that direction.

Hey, there's always Phoenix or L.A., right, not to mention the insane asylum I live in now. If Tucson is actually some sort of alternative to that, I like the idea.

[Jukesgrrl]

Originally Posted by keith talent

...think for a second about what it means to "attract top-notch corporations" and have the kind of "high-achieving" schools that prepare kids for the kind of rat-race life such corporations offer. It's not all so wonderful.

Think also for a second about what it means to have students with special needs who never even get tested for special ed, let alone get the remedial attention they need. Think about kids who graduate from high school and expect to get jobs, but who read at the fourth-grade level. Think about our military staffed by young adults who can't do multiplication or division.

I'm not even suggesting we aim for "high-achieving" schools. I'm asking for functional schools where kids have paper and pencils they don't have to get from a charity drive (which is what many are doing now).

The OP asked, "...what would it take to make Tucson a top-notch technology region?" Tucson may seem like an attractive paradise for you as an alternative to Manhattan, but third world-style schools don't even create a self-sustaining environment, let alone future-oriented one.

[Marcy1210]

Originally Posted by Jukesgrrl

Think also for a second about what it means to have students with special needs who never even get tested for special ed, let alone get the remedial attention they need. Think about kids who graduate from high school and expect to get jobs, but who read at the fourth-grade level. Think about our military staffed by young adults who can't do multiplication or division.

I'm not even suggesting we aim for "high-achieving" schools. I'm asking for functional schools where kids have paper and pencils they don't have to get from a charity drive (which is what many are doing now).

The OP asked, "...what would it take to make Tucson a top-notch technology region?" Tucson may seem like an attractive paradise for you as an alternative to Manhattan, but third world-style schools don't even create a self-sustaining environment, let alone future-oriented one.

The things you're saying are being said on half of the CD boards. It all boils down to money. Tucson isn't unique in its lack of educational funding for programs like Sp Ed. If a parent or a teacher suspects a child needs testing, the child will be tested. I had a son in Sp Ed from preschool on up and testing was a gimme, programs were automatic and he was allowed partial inclusion in most of his classes. He was bussed to a school in the district in a handicapped equipped bus. Every year he had an individual IEP plan and twice a year we met with the Sp Ed teacher, the resource teacher, the principal, social worker, psychologist and classroom teachers. That's how 90% of Sp Ed works. The kids who aren't tested usually fall in the borderline category or their parents don't see the need for testing. Teachers can't force testing, the parents have to approve it. Teachers notice when kids fall behind and they're trained to spot kids who might have special needs. If a child isn't tested, it's usually because the parents don't see the need for it.

As far as school supplies: For the past 30+ years, parents have had to provide school supplies as the districts can't afford to fund supplies. That is true nationwide. Many parents can't afford them, so retailers, grocery stores, television and radio stations, newspapers and other organizations have "drives" every summer to provide supplies for students who can't afford them. It's been happening for years all across the country. That way, at least the kids who can't afford supplies have what they need. There is no other way for underprivileged kids to get their school supplies.

Social promotion is also a fact and for the same reasons kids need school supply drives--no money in the districts. It's not the city of Tucson (or Denver, or Boston, or fill in the blank), or the schools, it's the voters in the districts who won't approve funding for the schools. Schools in most districts around the country are overcrowded, understaffed and in outdated buildings with lack of equipment and supplies because, as it's public education and is funded by the public, the public has to approve taxes and they don't. People whine about how lousy their schools are, yet when a bond issue is on the ballot, they won't pay for it and they wonder why the schools have financial problems.

Kids get promoted without the skills they need because there is not enough money to hire enough teachers to keep the class sizes small and have top of the line materials and facilities. Teachers can only do so much, and the majority of them go above and beyond their job description to help all the kids they can. But, their hands are tied because there just isn't enough money to provide the kind of education we all wish our kids could have.

The OP asked what it would take to make Tucson a top notch technology region? You need people willing to make an investment in Tucson financially. If people aren't willing to financially support Tucson, its schools, businesses, and government, then the city will not advance, it will stagnate and become less and less attractive to companies considering relocating here. You have to start with the citizens first, then proceed to better the services they're willing to pay for. Citizen apathy does not make for a vibrant, growing, attractive place to live.