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Interesting. Is that what they are proposing for Tulsa? What are the differences between Sounder commuter rail versus any other type of rail? Thanks for the info.
Interesting. Is that what they are proposing for Tulsa? What are the differences between Sounder commuter rail versus any other type of rail? Thanks for the info.
So far it sounds like the same thing. Light rail costs a lot more to get up and running because they have to design and obtain the right of ways, build the tracks (frequently over what used to be car lanes), possibly tunnels, then the stations; using existing heavy rail tracks bypasses much of that. Whereas light rail is more for inner city and midtown areas, heavy rail like this is more for suburban commuters to get to/from downtown with few if any stops in between. It's basically like the heavy rail networks older big cities like NYC, Philly & Chicago have used for decades for the more remote suburbs, but a big difference is the operator most likely owns all the tracks and right of ways. Sounder has to lease the tracks it runs on at a very steep price, and although people were initially sold on the relatively cheap cost and quick turnaround of such a system (like Tulsa), as the actual operating costs per person/per ride started to emerge, there was a lot of backlash. Most people still find it better than the alternative however. Traffic might have to get a lot worse in Tulsa before rail would be worth all the costs involved, especially to people who won't use it. But we can always hope can't we
So far it sounds like the same thing. Light rail costs a lot more to get up and running because they have to design and obtain the right of ways, build the tracks (frequently over what used to be car lanes), possibly tunnels, then the stations; using existing heavy rail tracks bypasses much of that. Whereas light rail is more for inner city and midtown areas, heavy rail like this is more for suburban commuters to get to/from downtown with few if any stops in between. It's basically like the heavy rail networks older big cities like NYC, Philly & Chicago have used for decades for the more remote suburbs, but a big difference is the operator most likely owns all the tracks and right of ways. Sounder has to lease the tracks it runs on at a very steep price, and although people were initially sold on the relatively cheap cost and quick turnaround of such a system (like Tulsa), as the actual operating costs per person/per ride started to emerge, there was a lot of backlash. Most people still find it better than the alternative however. Traffic might have to get a lot worse in Tulsa before rail would be worth all the costs involved, especially to people who won't use it. But we can always hope can't we
We can always hope Neptune. Thanks for the info. I guess Sounder rail is similar to the TRE (Trinity Railway Express) that they have here in the DFW area. I appreciate the information!
INCOG Looks To Expand Passenger Rail Plan To Tulsa Suburbs
Thursday July 19, 2007 4:23pm Reporter: Abby Ross Posted By: Kevin King
Tulsa - NewsChannel 8 told you earlier this year about plans for a potential passenger train transit system. At the time, the Indian Nations Council of Governments was looking at a route connecting only Tulsa to Broken Arrow. But, now they want to expand it to Owasso, Jenks, Glenpool, Bixby, Collinsville and possibly more.
There are plenty of railroad lines in the Tulsa area that don't get a lot of use. Those are the ones INCOG is targeting. They want to put chic passenger trains on the existing rail lines.
There would be stations set up all over the region, just like you see in larger cities like Denver or Chicago. Developers hope to relieve congestion on Tulsa area roadways.
A study already done in Broken Arrow found at peak hour, 40-thousand people use the Broken Arrow Expressway. Officials say a train could decrease that traffic by up to 20 percent.
"There is some real opportunity potentially at a cheaper cost to provide rail service and to draw traffic off of our highways," says INCOG Transportation Manager Tim Armer.
We spoke to some area residents who said they'd take a train.
"I would go to Tulsa and everywhere on the train," says Bixby resident Ella Castillo.
"That's why I like bigger cities like New York," adds Jeff Evans. "You can get around easier than a car."
Susie McCoy also says she would utilize the train to avoid having to get out in the winter.
"Especially in the wintertime when the snow and ice is bad because I live on the far side of Tulsa and I wouldn't have to drive in all of that traffic."
Completing the project would be expensive -- around 40-million dollars for each line. And, part of the funding would come from tax money. INCOG is in the process of speaking with all communities. If the plan goes through, all the trains would be up and running within five years.
Oh- I wish we had mass transit all over Oklahoma. Hopefully The Flyer amtrack will connect OKC to Tulsa...instead of silly Wichita. I would rather stop off at Tulsa then continue into KC....
I was born in Nowata OK and raised in Tulsa OK Until I left Tulsa and the State of Oklahoma in 1976 and have been all around the United States of America and as a matter of fact have been in 40 of the 50 States That Make Up These United States......I've Lived In California For About 29 Years and have seen almost all of the large cities here in America N.Y.C. Chi-Town L.A. San Diego San Francisco Milwaukee Portland Seattle Boston Baltimore Washington D.C. Charolette Minneapolis Atlanta Miami Birmingham New Orleans Houston Dallas San Antonio Phoenix Tucson Memphis Little Rock and I have only one thing to ask Tulsa what took you so Long to realize That You Need Commuter Rail and Light Rail. Tulsa need to develope their commuter rail system first because Light Rail is more expensives , and Tulsan Won't Foot The Bill For Light Rail Until The Year Of 2015-2020. The City Of Tulsa Already Have The Tracks For Commuter Rail So That's The EL CHEAPO Way To Do It...Oklahoma The State Needs To Develope Commuter Rail All The Way From Springfield Missouri Down To Tulsa Oklahoma City To Lawton And Down Into Wichita Falls Texas, and also Develope A Line That's Runs Up To Wichita Kansas.
1.Light Rail And Commuter Rail Is One Of The Only Ways That Big Cities Can Reduce And Reverse Pollution And Have A Quality Urban Enviroment.
2.Tulsa Is Going To Totally Destroy It's Surface Streets And Freeways And Expressways Without Rail Of One Kind Or Another. Forward Thinking People And Business Leaders Won't Relocate Here Because They Won't Put Up With A Car Culture Mentality In A City That Doesn't Measure Up To Los Angeles ,L.A. has 7,000 Foot Snow Capped Mountains ,Forests ,Valleys ,Deserts ,Ocean ,Beaches , And The World Most Beautiful People.
3.If You Believe That YOU ARE READY TO STEP UP TO WORLD CLASS STATUS STEP UNTO A COMMUTER TRAIN...
Last edited by Howest2008; 01-30-2008 at 08:55 PM..
Reason: Typo's
Those who argue against mass transit always argue that the first train line doesn't get YOU where you wish to go. And most often, they are correct. But they will not mention; as each corridor in your city gets a rail line, more and more people can get where they want to go by train.
The Broken Arrow freeway can't be expanded north of I 44 without destroying hundreds of homes along the right of way, or going up into the air or down under with extra lanes. Both choices will be far more expensive than using the rail line in the Broken Arrow freeway median.
I'm not so sure Tulsa is large enough and ready for a train yet. But when the Broken Arrow freeway slows down to a crawl in a few years, something will have to be done.
Since you are new to rail transit, here's the various types available today.
Commuter Rail: Diesel powered locomotive pulling or pushing passenger cars. Double deck cars are very popular today because they hold almost twice as many passengers as single deck cars. That's important because that reduces the length of the station platform, which also reduces costs building the stations. This type of commuter rail is FRA compliant, meaning it can share tracks with freight trains, and doesn't have to have its own tracks.
Stations are usually spaced 5 to 10 miles apart.
Examples: TRE, Railrunner, Frontrunner, Sounder.
Minimum turn radius being 300 feet.
Regional Rail: DMUs are self powered passenger cars. A large diesel powered bus engine is used for power by not just it's own car, but up to an additional five other cars too. DMUs and their sisters EMUs, powered by electricity, are very popular in Europe. Modern DMUs have very lightweight construction, and most aren't FRA compliant. They would be crushed like a compact car by a semi truck if ever in a train accident. Therefore, for safety sake, they can't share the same tracks at the same time with very heavy freight and commuter trains. Trainsit agencies using them either own the right of way and have banned heavyweight trains, both passenger and freight, or setup a time sharing scheme so that both compliant and non compliant trains aren't using the same tracks at the same time. Usually the heavy trains can only use the track late at night and very early in the mornings.
Examples: River Line, Sprinter, CapMetro. Even Amtrak is considering using these in New England, on short lines with little to no freight traffic. The Vermonter may get DMUs soon.
Stations are usually spaced 3 to 5 miles apart.
Minimum turn radius for the River Line is 130 feet, but most are 300 feet.
Light Rail and Metro trains: Are sized slightly smaller than regional trains and are powered by electricity. To be light rail, they use overhead electric lines. Metros use a third rail. Whereas light rail trains can run down city streets, metro trains can not. Metro trains must run on grade seperated or fenced off tracks so that no one can accidentially or on purpose touch the third rail. Light rail is usually much cheaper than Metro rail, because Metro rail usually requires grade seperations, and ovehead guideways and tunnels aren't cheap. But Light rail is more expensive than diesel powered Regional and Commuter rail because electric lines have to be erected, adding to the costs. But Light rail can adapt to almost every environment easier; in tunnels, in elevated guideways, under transmission lines, down abandoned track, and on city streets. It's their flexibility that makes them so popular in many large cities.
Light Rail Examples: DART, MAXX, CATS, St. Louis.
Metro Rail Examples: BART, Skyway, NYC Subway.
Station spacing 1 to 2 miles apart.
Minimum turn radius 82 feet.
Streetcars are smaller, city street running light rail trains. They also use overhead power lines. Streetcars can have multiple cars or just a single car, can be modern looking or look like a historic trolley. These are the cheapest trains around, because the city already owns the right of way, the city streets.
Examples: New Orleans, Memphis, Portland, Tacoma.
Station spacing every few blocks.
Minimum turn radius less than 50 feet.
There's also Monorail (Disneyland) and the new technology magnetic elevation trains. They're usually very expensive because they must have grade separated tracks too. Monorails are a very popular choice by many initially, but visions of 300 feet stations 25 to 30 feet in the air usually kills that. Disneyland works because the stations are built within hotels and other building's atriums and lobbys, both the train and buildings being built at the same time, not hanging 3 stories in the air 2 feet from an existing office building's windows.
Regional Rail is a fairly new term. Since they are usually powered by diesels, many still use the term commuter rail for them. But their non FRA compliant status means they aren't, since they can't share the same tracks with freight trains at the same time. Streetcars are often called light rail too, because they are powered by electricity, but there are electric powered commuter trains too. Their tighter turning capability should place them into a different category as well.
For the Broken Arrow rail corridor tracks, Tulsa choice is Commuter rail because the passenger train will be sharing the same tracks with Freight trains with the Freight railroad owning the track. Regional rail could be used and will require some time sharing agreement with the Freight Railroad that owns the tracks, but that's hard to do. It's much easier to use Regional Rail when the transit agency owns the track. Having said that, there is one modern FRA compliant Regional/Commuter train, the Colorado Railcar. The ancient Budd RDC is also FRA compliant, but they haven't built a new one of them since the late 1950s. There aren't many of them around anymore.
Last edited by electricron; 08-16-2008 at 02:41 AM..
I remember street cars back in Kansas City. The tracks ran across the road in front of our house. As kids, we would put gravel on the tracks and examine the powder that was left behind after the street car ran over it. They did away with the street cars in the 50's and removed the rails. The city then switched to buses. The railroad bed made an excellent ball field for the neighboorhood kids---and there were a lot of us!
Regional Rail: DMUs are self powered passenger cars. A large diesel powered bus engine is used for power by not just it's own car, but up to an additional five other cars too. DMUs and their sisters EMUs, powered by electricity, are very popular in Europe. Modern DMUs have very lightweight construction, and most aren't FRA compliant. They would be crushed like a compact car by a semi truck if ever in a train accident. Therefore, for safety sake, they can't share the same tracks at the same time with very heavy freight and commuter trains. Trainsit agencies using them either own the right of way and have banned heavyweight trains, both passenger and freight, or setup a time sharing scheme so that both compliant and non compliant trains aren't using the same tracks at the same time. Usually the heavy trains can only use the track late at night and very early in the mornings.
Examples: River Line, Sprinter, CapMetro. Even Amtrak is considering using these in New England, on short lines with little to no freight traffic. The Vermonter may get DMUs soon.
Stations are usually spaced 3 to 5 miles apart.
Minimum turn radius for the River Line is 130 feet, but most are 300 feet.
Do you think those can be used as Amtrak spurs and connector feeds? For example; from the Florence South Carolina Amtrak station towards Myrtle Beach.
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I was born in Nowata OK and raised in Tulsa OK Until I left Tulsa and the State of Oklahoma in 1976 and have been all around the United States of America and as a matter of fact have been in 40 of the 50 States That Make Up These United States......I've Lived In California For About 29 Years and have seen almost all of the large cities here in America N.Y.C. Chi-Town L.A. San Diego San Francisco Milwaukee Portland Seattle Boston Baltimore Washington D.C. Charolette Minneapolis Atlanta Miami Birmingham New Orleans Houston Dallas San Antonio Phoenix Tucson Memphis Little Rock and I have only one thing to ask Tulsa what took you so Long to realize That You Need Commuter Rail and Light Rail. Tulsa need to develope their commuter rail system first because Light Rail is more expensives , and Tulsan Won't Foot The Bill For Light Rail Until The Year Of 2015-2020. The City Of Tulsa Already Have The Tracks For Commuter Rail So That's The EL CHEAPO Way To Do It...Oklahoma The State Needs To Develope Commuter Rail All The Way From Springfield Missouri Down To Tulsa Oklahoma City To Lawton And Down Into Wichita Falls Texas, and also Develope A Line That's Runs Up To Wichita Kansas.
