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Old 09-09-2011, 09:22 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,542 posts, read 9,434,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill236c View Post
Are you truly sorry? I remember you and others beat this dead horse at least once before.
I can't believe you guys really care about this.
Bill, sorry I burned your biscuits by discussing the geography/culture of Tulsa on a Oklahoma CD forum. What was I thinking?

The belief by a few that Tulsa is a singular anomaly/enclave of Midwestern culture in an otherwise clearly Southwestern/Southern state is a mystery to me. The thought behind it is fascinating to me as I have always been interested in discussions of geography/region and how those influence overarching culture. In this case, Tulsa is the focus. So, I'm just trying to get to the bottom of it with good ol' civil dialogue with those that I disagree with when it comes to labeling and regionally designating Tulsa.

I do agree the horse has been beaten and long since dead. Other than college football, however, I am generally talking about geography and/or culture in the majority of my posts on City-Data. I would suggest that if you don't like the subject matter that I generally deal with just don't read my posts.

Have a good one.

Last edited by Bass&Catfish2008; 09-09-2011 at 10:12 AM..
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Old 09-09-2011, 09:25 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,542 posts, read 9,434,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ironhorseherb View Post
Are we not South of the Mason Dixon line? End of discussion.
True. I think this is generally how most Okies feel about the matter. No one is saying (me especially and thank God) that Oklahoma/Tulsa is part of the Deep South in any way. For whatever reason, some Tulsans view the Southern association as backwater and uneducated. I believe that is wrongheaded and revisionistic denial of our roots as a state.

Oklahoma is simply a Southern derivative; and, to be sure, Tulsa carries that derived overarching Oklahoma culture in line with the rest of the Sooner State.

Last edited by Bass&Catfish2008; 09-09-2011 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:15 AM
 
1,359 posts, read 4,837,164 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bideshi View Post
One question to ask: how do you feel about tornados?
I have a feeling people from the Plains states are already pretty familiar with those.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:29 AM
 
1,831 posts, read 2,195,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
True. I think this is generally how most Okies feel about the matter. No one is saying (me especially and thank God) that Oklahoma/Tulsa is part of the Deep South in any way. For whatever reason, some Tulsans view the Southern association as backwater and uneducated. I believe that is wrongheaded and revisionistic denial of our roots as a state.

Oklahoma is simply a Southern derivative; and, to be sure, Tulsa carries that derived overarching Oklahoma culture in line with the rest of the Sooner State.
I don’t know what to tell you, I don’t know why you are so upset about this. The Mason Dixon line is pretty much irrelevant to Oklahoma because it and the “south” are tied very much to the Civil War, an event that happened 40 years before Oklahoma became a state and 25-30 years before anyone other than Native Americans lived in Oklahoma in any great numbers. No one cares about the Civil War in Oklahoma, at least not in the way they do in the south.

Look in the Tulsa phone book, there are dozens of listings for businesses called Midwest this or Midwest that. There is no “Midwest” part of Tulsa. There are business that have “South” or “Southern” in their name, but just about all of them are in “South” Tulsa or in the “Southern Hills” part of town.

Home

MidWest Publishing Company Energy industry directory

Tulsa Radiator Shop - Midwest Radiator of Tulsa Oklahoma Home Page

When festivals and events are held here and they claim a region of the country they almost invariably say we are the Midwest

The Midwest Harp Festival takes place at Oral Roberts University - Home

About the Tulsa Midwest Kids Fest - A weekend of fun and activities for the kid in everyone!

Midwest Sportman's Society- Global Sporting Expo, Tulsa Convention Center, Tulsa | Wimgo

AHDRA All Harley Drag Racing Association - Mid-West Nitro Nationals April 16-17 2011 Tulsa Oklahoma

News stories call Tulsa Midwest all the time, especially local news. I really don’t hear them call Tulsa or Oklahoma “The South”, sometimes “Southwest” but not “South”.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:37 AM
 
1,359 posts, read 4,837,164 times
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That is not entirely true about the Civil War, ever hear of Stand Watie? The Civil War did affect the tribes living in Oklahoma during that time, however, they had their own reasons for their involvement in it, and you're right in saying they don't care about it the same way.

I will say the Mason-Dixon line argument isn't that relevant.

I would say it's Midwest also, but not the same Midwest as Ohio, Indiana, etc. More like the beginning of the Western states, and since it's in the middle of the country it's the Midwest. A lot of the cultural stuff that people say makes Oklahoma southern is not really unique to the south.
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Old 09-09-2011, 10:58 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,542 posts, read 9,434,510 times
Reputation: 3296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swake View Post
I don’t know what to tell you, I don’t know why you are so upset about this. The Mason Dixon line is pretty much irrelevant to Oklahoma because it and the “south” are tied very much to the Civil War, an event that happened 40 years before Oklahoma became a state and 25-30 years before anyone other than Native Americans lived in Oklahoma in any great numbers. No one cares about the Civil War in Oklahoma, at least not in the way they do in the south.

Look in the Tulsa phone book, there are dozens of listings for businesses called Midwest this or Midwest that. There is no “Midwest” part of Tulsa. There are business that have “South” or “Southern” in their name, but just about all of them are in “South” Tulsa or in the “Southern Hills” part of town.

Home

MidWest Publishing Company Energy industry directory

Tulsa Radiator Shop - Midwest Radiator of Tulsa Oklahoma Home Page

When festivals and events are held here and they claim a region of the country they almost invariably say we are the Midwest

The Midwest Harp Festival takes place at Oral Roberts University - Home

About the Tulsa Midwest Kids Fest - A weekend of fun and activities for the kid in everyone!

Midwest Sportman's Society- Global Sporting Expo, Tulsa Convention Center, Tulsa | Wimgo

AHDRA All Harley Drag Racing Association - Mid-West Nitro Nationals April 16-17 2011 Tulsa Oklahoma

News stories call Tulsa Midwest all the time, especially local news. I really don’t hear them call Tulsa or Oklahoma “The South”, sometimes “Southwest” but not “South”.
Not upset at all. And apologies if you received it that way.

I'm sure much of this discussion hinges on a generational gap as well. Seems like the younger folks don't care much about the Old Ways, the Old Oklahoma Culture and simplicities. I do, and I enjoy talking about them to keep those ways alive.

You really did not spend any time answering my points. That is okay, I know you didn't have much to go on to begin with.

I was mainly looking for some evidence from you to support your position. Posting businesses out of the phone book doesn't really help your case and doesn't amount to much.....that could be done with OK City or other Southwestern/Southern cities. (Midwestern University comes to mind in Wichita Falls, TX.) Last time I was in OK City area I saw a business called "Midwestern Insurance." Doesn't make the town midwestern in any shape or form. Such instances tend to be more locational referent points as you listed with your example of the businesses in south Tulsa, etc.

I just wanted you to see the inconsistency of your position, which, as I noted, you are perfectly free to maintain. It will remain a headscratcher for me that somehow OK City is Southwestern and Tulsa is Midwestern (separated by only a 100 miles) within state lines. The cities are culturally very much alike. If you're saying that Tulsa is closer to the Midwest....say, Missouri/Kansas, etc. then that makes a tad more sense. You haven't made that point, however.

And we'll probably disagree over this (and perhaps other issues) in the future, no skin off my back. I just enjoy the dialogue.

Agree to disagree.
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Old 09-09-2011, 11:11 AM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,542 posts, read 9,434,510 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e_cuyler View Post
That is not entirely true about the Civil War, ever hear of Stand Watie? The Civil War did affect the tribes living in Oklahoma during that time, however, they had their own reasons for their involvement in it, and you're right in saying they don't care about it the same way.

I will say the Mason-Dixon line argument isn't that relevant.

I would say it's Midwest also, but not the same Midwest as Ohio, Indiana, etc. More like the beginning of the Western states, and since it's in the middle of the country it's the Midwest. A lot of the cultural stuff that people say makes Oklahoma southern is not really unique to the south.
>>>>>
That is not entirely true about the Civil War, ever hear of Stand Watie? The Civil War did affect the tribes living in Oklahoma during that time, however, they had their own reasons for their involvement in it, and you're right in saying they don't care about it the same way.

True. I think the generational gap issue has been highlighted once again.

>>>>>
More like the beginning of the Western states, and since it's in the middle of the country it's the Midwest.
<<<<<

This is on the money. I think this may be the crux of the issue. Apparently, no one teaches geography in school any more. Even if it may not make sense geographically in our day, the Midwest has always been understood Kansas/Iowa/Nebraska/Dakotas/Michigan/Whiskey/Illinois/Indiana/Ohio/Missouri/Minnesota. I'm still waiting to see one respected regional map that has Oklahoma lumped in with these aforementioned states.

I would be fine with the Midwest appellation for Oklahoma if all those other original Midwest states were called Middle North East or something. I don't think we're changing the Census' mind any time soon as those geographical boundaries are based, not only on mere location, but the culture and overall traditions/regionalism that make up a overarching region. North/South/Midwest/West/Southwest, etc.
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Old 09-09-2011, 02:30 PM
 
1,831 posts, read 2,195,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bass&Catfish2008 View Post
Doesn't make the town midwestern in any shape or form. Such instances tend to be more locational referent points as you listed with your example of the businesses in south Tulsa, etc.
There is no "midwest" part of Tulsa. There is Northwest Tulsa (AKA Gilcrease Hills), there is West Tulsa and then there's Southwest Tulsa. There's no such place as Midwest Tulsa. All these Tulsa Businesses call themselves Midwest because the owner believes his Tulsa business is IN the Midwest.
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Old 09-09-2011, 03:53 PM
 
Location: OKIE-Ville
5,542 posts, read 9,434,510 times
Reputation: 3296
Quote:
Originally Posted by swake View Post
There is no "midwest" part of Tulsa. There is Northwest Tulsa (AKA Gilcrease Hills), there is West Tulsa and then there's Southwest Tulsa. There's no such place as Midwest Tulsa. All these Tulsa Businesses call themselves Midwest because the owner believes his Tulsa business is IN the Midwest.
Perhaps in the sense that E-Cuyler stated above (Oklahoma/Texas/Arkansas truly are the Midpoint of the country and thus many see these states as the so-called "Midwest" = hence my example of Midwestern University in Texas or MidAmerica U in OK City. But that is not the same as the historical/cultural basis for the true Midwestern states such as MI/WI/OH/IL/IA/KS/NE/MI/ND/SD, etc....the "true" Midwestern states born out by credible maps/history, culture,regionalism,traditions, et al. I think history/geographical designations/culture are important and thus I seek to correct when I see others undervaluing traditions that many of us older folks (and those before us) hold dear.

You've still provided nothing other than an opinion, which is your right, we live in a free country where we can be wrong on such trivial issues. And, this is BEYOND trivial, but fun/fascinating to dialogue about nonetheless.

Again, the generational gap is obvious in this little back&forth...no need to belabor it. Perhaps I should just become a grammar school geography teacher for a few of the wayward youngins in Tulsa.

Cheers Swakester.
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Old 09-10-2011, 12:47 PM
 
641 posts, read 1,064,583 times
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I have been all over the south, lots of times. Have lived in Tulsa 47 years. I would have to say that Tulsa seems different than places like Mississippi, Birmingham, or Louisiana. It is more like Kansas City, or Saint Louis. There seems to be more continuity that way. But much of Oklahoma seems more like the south. Western Oklahoma is just western, not "old south" at all.
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