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Old 08-25-2009, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,210 times
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Is Mexico a racially integrated place or is it like Puerto Rico?

 
Old 08-28-2009, 06:06 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
6,250 posts, read 3,699,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
How many Dominicans are in Puerto Rico? Is their population equal to that of the black PR population?

You sound like that Dominican poster on here who, not wanting to admit that 85% of Dominicans have African roots, tried to say that the majority of blacks in his country were actually Haitians.

So most of the blacks we see in PR are actually Dominican. Does that mean they are really Haitian?
If you haven't already done so, I suggest you read the novel "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao" by Junot Diaz, a Dominican-born but New Jersey raised author who is black by your yardstick, but "trigueno" to me. (I do not adhere to the "one drop rule" school of thought that white North Americans developed) Mr. Diaz's novel sheds a lot of insight into the idiosyncrasies of Caribbean blackness. Mr. Diaz is also a professor at MIT.
 
Old 08-28-2009, 06:50 PM
 
60,488 posts, read 85,593,610 times
Reputation: 13297
Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers View Post
Is Mexico a racially integrated place or is it like Puerto Rico?
Yes, but it's history with it's Black inhabitants is pretty rocky. They do have communities on the Caribbean and Pacific Coasts that have strong African ties, that have been hidden for years. Here's some cool information on that and other Afro-Latino topics: Afro-Mexican - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Costa Chica Region (http://www.afromexico.com/costa.htm - broken link)

http://www.afromexico.com/towns.htm (broken link)

Links (http://www.afromexico.com/links.htm - broken link)

Black Mexicans see pride in lost history

African Mexicans

African Roots Stretch Deep Into Mexico : Mexico History

Google Image Result for http://cultureofsoccer.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/afro_mexicans.jpg

Google Image Result for http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_gmfF-ByWzl0/RaVYonfTR4I/AAAAAAAAAC4/PRvqrNiMuDQ/s320/BlackMexicans.jpg

Google Image Result for http://latinopoliticsblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/costa-chicans-la-times.jpg
 
Old 08-28-2009, 07:49 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,799,412 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
If you haven't already done so, I suggest you read the novel "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao" by Junot Diaz, a Dominican-born but New Jersey raised author who is black by your yardstick, but "trigueno" to me. (I do not adhere to the "one drop rule" school of thought that white North Americans developed) Mr. Diaz's novel sheds a lot of insight into the idiosyncrasies of Caribbean blackness. Mr. Diaz is also a professor at MIT.
I read the book, and I know Junot.
 
Old 08-28-2009, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,799,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
If you haven't already done so, I suggest you read the novel "The Brief Wondrous Life of Oscar Wao" by Junot Diaz, a Dominican-born but New Jersey raised author who is black by your yardstick, but "trigueno" to me. (I do not adhere to the "one drop rule" school of thought that white North Americans developed) Mr. Diaz's novel sheds a lot of insight into the idiosyncrasies of Caribbean blackness. Mr. Diaz is also a professor at MIT.

So what yardstick do you use to determine what is black and what is trigueno? And what's the difference?

Last edited by Lucario; 08-28-2009 at 08:04 PM..
 
Old 08-28-2009, 11:51 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
6,250 posts, read 3,699,924 times
Reputation: 3900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
So what yardstick do you use to determine what is black and what is trigueno? And what's the difference?
The difference is that I do not accept the "one drop rule" of the white South of the US ("if one drop of your blood is Negro, then you are a Negro"). I believe that doctrine was developed by North American white slave owners to perpetuate the systematic dehumanization of the African slaves. Slave owners justified slavery by refusing to acknowledge the humanity of their slaves. Miscegenation did take place in North America, but by denying the presence of any white blood in someone with a "black" phenotype, the slave owners continued to deny the humanity of their slaves.

I just don't like the Manichean way in which people in this country define "race" or color. How can one drop of African blood negate the rest of a person's genetic make up? It's retarded. Not too long ago I ran into an African American physician from back east who told me he was often angered by the "reluctance of some Puerto Ricans to acknowledge their negroid blood". He wanted complete surrender. He wanted those Puerto Ricans to identify themselves as "African Americans" and throw away their Puerto Rican identity which is the product of the miscegenation of three different races and cultures. To them, identifying themselves as "African American" is to negate their identity as Puerto Ricans. I tried to explain to him that when you have mixed blood, your phenotype may look "black", but what if your mother or father have a "white" phenotype? How can you expect them to "throw away" one of their parents? That is simply ridiculous.

That is where shades come in. The Spaniards brought African slaves to their colonies in Spanish America, but the slaves were considered humans. Why do I say that? Because I have read hundreds of pages of baptismal records of catholic churches in PR where babies born into slavery where baptized and given a godfather and godmother who "assumed the responsibility of the child's spiritual education and hence his salvation". So yes, the slaves were property, but they were considered human. They had a soul just like their white owners. Spanish priests also called categorized those babies as "negros, morenos, pardos (basically means brown) and blancos".

As for yardsticks I use a combination of two: 1. I respect whatever an individual says he/she is because I am not going to impeach another person's sense of self. 2. My eyesight is not capable of analyzing genotypes but my eyesight can distinguish shades and variations. So, a trigueno is someone who looks dark but whose skin color or even features indicate the presence of some other genes other than African. One is not better than another. It is just there and it shouldn't be denied.

I must admit it is totally subjective, and hardly fool proof. But it is reflective of the environment in which I grew up, and I am comfortable with it. Besides, skin color doesn't tell much about a person. There are other factors like family history, religion, education, traditions, values, norms, and mores that paint a more complete picture of who a person is.

So I really don't care what skin color a person born or raised in Cuba, DR or PR has. To me, they're Cuban, Dominican and Puerto Rican respectively before they're any shade of black or white. To me, culture trumps color.
 
Old 08-29-2009, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Milwaukee, Wisc.
1,338 posts, read 3,520,917 times
Reputation: 2352
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArizonaBear View Post
NOTE: not all 'White' people are successful

Small minority admittedly; but, the most successful socio-economic group here in the USA are Blacks of Nigerian, Kenyan, etc. heritage.
Please prove this ridiculous statement with some facts or statistics...
 
Old 08-29-2009, 10:43 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,799,412 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post
The difference is that I do not accept the "one drop rule" of the white South of the US ("if one drop of your blood is Negro, then you are a Negro"). I believe that doctrine was developed by North American white slave owners to perpetuate the systematic dehumanization of the African slaves. Slave owners justified slavery by refusing to acknowledge the humanity of their slaves. Miscegenation did take place in North America, but by denying the presence of any white blood in someone with a "black" phenotype, the slave owners continued to deny the humanity of their slaves.

I just don't like the Manichean way in which people in this country define "race" or color. How can one drop of African blood negate the rest of a person's genetic make up? It's retarded. Not too long ago I ran into an African American physician from back east who told me he was often angered by the "reluctance of some Puerto Ricans to acknowledge their negroid blood". He wanted complete surrender. He wanted those Puerto Ricans to identify themselves as "African Americans" and throw away their Puerto Rican identity which is the product of the miscegenation of three different races and cultures. To them, identifying themselves as "African American" is to negate their identity as Puerto Ricans. I tried to explain to him that when you have mixed blood, your phenotype may look "black", but what if your mother or father have a "white" phenotype? How can you expect them to "throw away" one of their parents? That is simply ridiculous.

That is where shades come in. The Spaniards brought African slaves to their colonies in Spanish America, but the slaves were considered humans. Why do I say that? Because I have read hundreds of pages of baptismal records of catholic churches in PR where babies born into slavery where baptized and given a godfather and godmother who "assumed the responsibility of the child's spiritual education and hence his salvation". So yes, the slaves were property, but they were considered human. They had a soul just like their white owners. Spanish priests also called categorized those babies as "negros, morenos, pardos (basically means brown) and blancos".

As for yardsticks I use a combination of two: 1. I respect whatever an individual says he/she is because I am not going to impeach another person's sense of self. 2. My eyesight is not capable of analyzing genotypes but my eyesight can distinguish shades and variations. So, a trigueno is someone who looks dark but whose skin color or even features indicate the presence of some other genes other than African. One is not better than another. It is just there and it shouldn't be denied.

I must admit it is totally subjective, and hardly fool proof. But it is reflective of the environment in which I grew up, and I am comfortable with it. Besides, skin color doesn't tell much about a person. There are other factors like family history, religion, education, traditions, values, norms, and mores that paint a more complete picture of who a person is.

So I really don't care what skin color a person born or raised in Cuba, DR or PR has. To me, they're Cuban, Dominican and Puerto Rican respectively before they're any shade of black or white. To me, culture trumps color.

I think there are a couple of issues here. First of all, I am very much aware of cultural differences between those of African descent, or those of mixed African, European and other descent, because I grew up in a home where half of my family is African American, and half is Latino. I consider both of my parents black, but my dad is African American and my mom is not. Nevertheless, my mom was very conscious of her African heritage and her blackness. There is nothing wrong with non-African American black people, such as Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, or Cubans, saying they are Dominican, Puerto Rican or Cuban, or Latino, in a North American context. There is something wrong with obvious descendants of Africans being ashamed of that fact, and trying to hide their African roots by emphasizing their background in non-African American cultures. If you're of obvious African descent, you're black, whether you're American, Latin, Brazilian, European, or Martian. That does not mean you have to behave as if you are purely African, straight off the boat from Senegal. By your standards, the vast majority of people descended from Africans (and that includes American blacks), are trigueno, because they are mixed African and other. To me, blackness transcends culture, while to you, blackness excludes you from certain cultures. Why can't someone be black and Latino?
 
Old 08-29-2009, 12:15 PM
 
60,488 posts, read 85,593,610 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
I think there are a couple of issues here. First of all, I am very much aware of cultural differences between those of African descent, or those of mixed African, European and other descent, because I grew up in a home where half of my family is African American, and half is Latino. I consider both of my parents black, but my dad is African American and my mom is not. Nevertheless, my mom was very conscious of her African heritage and her blackness. There is nothing wrong with non-African American black people, such as Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, or Cubans, saying they are Dominican, Puerto Rican or Cuban, or Latino, in a North American context. There is something wrong with obvious descendants of Africans being ashamed of that fact, and trying to hide their African roots by emphasizing their background in non-African American cultures. If you're of obvious African descent, you're black, whether you're American, Latin, Brazilian, European, or Martian. That does not mean you have to behave as if you are purely African, straight off the boat from Senegal. By your standards, the vast majority of people descended from Africans (and that includes American blacks), are trigueno, because they are mixed African and other. To me, blackness transcends culture, while to you, blackness excludes you from certain cultures. Why can't someone be black and Latino?
I totally agree and when you bring in the fact that race is a social construct, it makes more complex than what some make it. You CAN be Black and Latino, and many are.

As for the slaves in Latin America, you could also say that the fact that they were viewed as 'human", could also blind them and said descendants from the fact that there is a social hierarchy that still exists with those societies. In turn, that mutes or lessens the feeling to be more conscious of one's background and how that plays a part in the general social reality of that society or country. That's why I find it interesting that now you see a rise in consciousness in Latin America amongst those of African descent in a way that didn't occur even 20 years ago. It was always there, especially among those that were solidly considered Black by the varied socio-historical racial classifications of Latin American countries, but it is starting to even touch those of any "decent" amount of African ancestry, for lack of a better word. I think this has come about as the world becomes smaller due to technology and learning more about the common "struggle" of people of African descent in the Western Hemisphere and African diapora in a Western based world.
 
Old 08-30-2009, 12:50 AM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
6,250 posts, read 3,699,924 times
Reputation: 3900
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
I think there are a couple of issues here. First of all, I am very much aware of cultural differences between those of African descent, or those of mixed African, European and other descent, because I grew up in a home where half of my family is African American, and half is Latino. I consider both of my parents black, but my dad is African American and my mom is not. Nevertheless, my mom was very conscious of her African heritage and her blackness. There is nothing wrong with non-African American black people, such as Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, or Cubans, saying they are Dominican, Puerto Rican or Cuban, or Latino, in a North American context. There is something wrong with obvious descendants of Africans being ashamed of that fact, and trying to hide their African roots by emphasizing their background in non-African American cultures. If you're of obvious African descent, you're black, whether you're American, Latin, Brazilian, European, or Martian. That does not mean you have to behave as if you are purely African, straight off the boat from Senegal. By your standards, the vast majority of people descended from Africans (and that includes American blacks), are trigueno, because they are mixed African and other. To me, blackness transcends culture, while to you, blackness excludes you from certain cultures. Why can't someone be black and Latino?
I stated that Puerto Rican identity is rooted on the miscegenation of three races and cultures: Taino, Europeans, and Africans. That incredibly complicated mixture constitutes a culture.

When Puerto Ricans of all shades and colors march together in some protest against the local government they usually do so singing "bombas" and "plenas". To me, a good "plena" sounds a heck of a lot more African than Jazz.

When Puerto Ricans communicate amongst themselves they do so in Spanish, a European language. When you visit a Puerto Rican household and the owner tells you to sit on this "butaca" and have some "mabi" while I "guayo" this "yuca" the owner of the house is using Taino words.

So I fail to see how on earth "blackness" can exclude you from certain cultures. That is a complete "disparate". That is a WHITE North American concept. Remember the "one drop rule"? White supremacists came up with that one. It seems to me that you have bought it line, hook and sinker. Do you believe in the "one drop rule"? To you, blackness transcends culture whereas to me culture transcends ANY color: black, white and everything in between. You ask why can't someone be black and Latino (they are not mutually exclusive) while I ask why can't someone just be Latino? BTW, what is wrong with being trigueno? Just because North Americans cannot grasp such nuances doesn't make it wrong. Sorry, but I am not going to allow some white supremacist from North America tell me who I am, what I am, and how I am. By the same token, I am not going to allow an African American tell me who I am either.

I think that the reason we don't see eye to eye is because you grew up in the States while I grew up in Puerto Rico. For the life of me, I cannot comprehend the North American obsession with categorizing (and SEPARATING) people according to the color of their skin as if nothing else mattered.

Although I was born in Manhattan, I was raised in Puerto Rico since I was 24 days old. During the early 60's, my mother's OB/GYN was a Puerto Rican woman with VERY dark skin. Nothing triguena about her. But she was a fantastic and very successful physician way before the Civil Rights Act. She had patients of all shades and quite a few with strictly white (by North American standards) phenotypes. The color of her skin never came up in any conversation that I can remember.

I attended private schools where there were quite a few triguenos and a few black PR phenotypes. They came from well educated families with money. That was back in the 60's and 70's. If you look at my yearbooks, you'll be able to identify the proverbial cliques with members of all shades.

The "racism" that exists in Puerto Rico goes hand in hand with socioeconomic status and it has never come close to the racism in North America. It just hasn't been that big of an issue. Puerto Ricans didn't have men in white sheets running around killing people of color. There were no separate bathrooms or water fountains. Blacks, triguenos and whites all rode together in cramped "carros publicos".

For over a hundred years, North Americans have tried to impose their Manichean and bipolar ideas about "race" on the people of PR. They have failed miserably, and they will continue to do so. As for Puerto Ricans who are "ashamed" of their African blood, you'd have to ask them because I did not grow up around any of them. After I moved to the states, though, I did witness an African American man tell an African American woman that he'd never consider dating her or her girlfriend because he preferred white women. The African American woman shot back by calling him a "blue monkey" (just for starters) and it all went down hill from there. I just walked away in disbelief.

You stated your father is African American and that your mother is not, yet she's proud of her African heritage. That's great. So what do you consider yourself? Black?

Now, imagine you grew up in Puerto Rico. Your father is white skinned with blue eyes and your mother has dark skin with shiny wavy hair, thin lips and big flat nose. Are you going to say you descend from Africans or are you your father's son? Is not easy, is it?
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