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Old 08-30-2009, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EDnurse View Post

When Puerto Ricans of all shades and colors march together in some protest against the local government they usually do so singing "bombas" and "plenas". To me, a good "plena" sounds a heck of a lot more African than Jazz.
I agree with that. Though there are jazz compositions that incorporate Plena.....see, Cepeda, William, and Zenon, Miguel, for two examples.


Quote:
When Puerto Ricans communicate amongst themselves they do so in Spanish, a European language. When you visit a Puerto Rican household and the owner tells you to sit on this "butaca" and have some "mabi" while I "guayo" this "yuca" the owner of the house is using Taino words.

So I fail to see how on earth "blackness" can exclude you from certain cultures.
It can't. But you seem to believe that someone who is Latino can't fully embrace being black; black to you is a contributor, or a subset, to that which is Latino, but it is not an identity unto itself for Latinos.



Quote:
That is a complete "disparate". That is a WHITE North American concept. Remember the "one drop rule"? White supremacists came up with that one. It seems to me that you have bought it line, hook and sinker.
What makes you think that? I do know there are many African descendants from Latin America who call themselves black in the American sense, because in America they can be nothing other than that.



Quote:
Do you believe in the "one drop rule"? To you, blackness transcends culture whereas to me culture transcends ANY color: black, white and everything in between. You ask why can't someone be black and Latino (they are not mutually exclusive) while I ask why can't someone just be Latino?

There is no such thing as just Latino. Latinos have different cultures, independent of their color. Cubans and Argentines have Spanish in common (barely). There are many other aspects of their cultures that do not have the same origins.

Quote:
BTW, what is wrong with being trigueno? Just because North Americans cannot grasp such nuances doesn't make it wrong. Sorry, but I am not going to allow some white supremacist from North America tell me who I am, what I am, and how I am.
I guess you told them.........

Quote:

By the same token, I am not going to allow an African American tell me who I am either.
I guess you told me.



Quote:
I think that the reason we don't see eye to eye is because you grew up in the States while I grew up in Puerto Rico. For the life of me, I cannot comprehend the North American obsession with categorizing (and SEPARATING) people according to the color of their skin as if nothing else mattered.
Yes, you are right about that. But I do know that many other African Latinos have had the same experiences as I have in America, where our skin color has been directly correlated to our quality of life. And when we go back "home" (PR, Cuba, etc.) we can see the exact same phenomena working. Check my Tego Calderon quotes above.



Quote:
Although I was born in Manhattan, I was raised in Puerto Rico since I was 24 days old. During the early 60's, my mother's OB/GYN was a Puerto Rican woman with VERY dark skin. Nothing triguena about her. But she was a fantastic and very successful physician way before the Civil Rights Act. She had patients of all shades and quite a few with strictly white (by North American standards) phenotypes. The color of her skin never came up in any conversation that I can remember.

I attended private schools where there were quite a few triguenos and a few black PR phenotypes. They came from well educated families with money. That was back in the 60's and 70's. If you look at my yearbooks, you'll be able to identify the proverbial cliques with members of all shades.

The "racism" that exists in Puerto Rico goes hand in hand with socioeconomic status and it has never come close to the racism in North America. It just hasn't been that big of an issue. Puerto Ricans didn't have men in white sheets running around killing people of color. There were no separate bathrooms or water fountains. Blacks, triguenos and whites all rode together in cramped "carros publicos".

I understand what you are saying here. Cuba has had somewhat of a different experience - Pre-Castro, there was American-type segregation in many aspects of Cuban life, as well as documented massacres of Afro-Cubans - but bottom line is, anti-black racism still exists in many of our countries. I have Costa Rican and Colombian friends who outline this to me in very explicit, stark terms.

Quote:
For over a hundred years, North Americans have tried to impose their Manichean and bipolar ideas about "race" on the people of PR. They have failed miserably, and they will continue to do so. As for Puerto Ricans who are "ashamed" of their African blood, you'd have to ask them because I did not grow up around any of them. After I moved to the states, though, I did witness an African American man tell an African American woman that he'd never consider dating her or her girlfriend because he preferred white women. The African American woman shot back by calling him a "blue monkey" (just for starters) and it all went down hill from there. I just walked away in disbelief.
Can you tell me that no Puerto Rican you know has ever spoken about wanting to marry someone lighter skinned so their children aren't black? I hear that (from Dominicans, Cubans, Haitians and African Americans also) all the time.

Quote:
You stated your father is African American and that your mother is not, yet she's proud of her African heritage. That's great. So what do you consider yourself? Black?
Yes, black, as in of African descent. I also have French, Canary Islander, Taino and Chinese ancestry.

Quote:
Now, imagine you grew up in Puerto Rico. Your father is white skinned with blue eyes and your mother has dark skin with shiny wavy hair, thin lips and big flat nose. Are you going to say you descend from Africans or are you your father's son? Is not easy, is it?
I would say I am Puerto Rican, with ancestors from Africa, Europe and Boriken.

 
Old 08-30-2009, 12:29 PM
 
60,542 posts, read 85,660,993 times
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I just like to add that if you think about it and look at race, it is a concept that was started by Europeans(specifically Western European) for economic gain. So, in turn White supremacy isn't just about "hate" groups and people saying racial slurs and lynchings, but it is about the system that is used as well. So, in that sense, that is something that has permeated throughout the Western Hemisphere and many other places on earth as well when looking at history and even present situations. This can be used involving other groups and on a macro or micro level to.

Here are some groups that have always referred to themselves as just "people"/"man" or "person", when translating the name of said group of people: Inuit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bantu peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also, here's some interesting history about the US that many people even in the States don't know about: RACE - The Power of an Illusion . Background Readings | PBS , RACE - The Power of an Illusion | PBS

So, should we just get rid of the concept or deal with it's reality?
 
Old 10-19-2009, 01:30 PM
 
Location: DF
758 posts, read 2,004,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_singlemother View Post
Puerto Rico is far more diverse than Mexico.

Wow, I know this thread is old but I just had to comment on this. I love PR, I really do, but Mexico is eons more diverse. It has 62 national languages on top of Spanish, meaning 62 different active ethnic indigenous groups call Mexico home. On top of that, it has the same racial elements that PR does, but to a lesser extent.

Our indigenous were able to withstand the onslaught of the Spanish somewhat, and that's why there's more of them (and their mixed ancestors) in Mexico than anywhere else. However, a good 10-15% of the population would be considered WHITE. Moreover, there is an active (and powerful) Jewish community. There's a large Korean community in Mexico city, and a HUGE Chinese community in Baja. IN Guerrero and Veracruz, there are small black or zambo communities (in fact, one of the first presidents of Mexico was a 'zambo', meaning black, spanish and indian)

To answer the very very old thread: Are there racial divides in puerto along socioeconomic lines due to the history of colonialism? Oh yeah. One can argue they are less pronounced than other areas, but if you go to LOIZA, it's an Afro-PuertoRican and the're not doing too hot. Check out the native owners of the Condos in Condado, Isla Verde,, or members of the country clubs: they're generally a lot fairer skinned.

Nevertheless, it's not AS pronounced as, say, in PERU, because there is a strong U.S. influence, and many PRicans that return after living in the U.S. bring back
enlightened ideas about race and equality. Add to this a latinamerican twist: Aside from slavery there was never any institutional segregation of blacks and whites.
 
Old 10-22-2009, 05:52 AM
 
12 posts, read 14,233 times
Reputation: 11
Default Puerto Rico and Mexico

Yes, there is a preference for all things lighter in Puerto Rico, but there is a greater acceptance (not just tolerance like in the US) of black people at the same time. Because there is no one drop rule and like the person above mentioned, history of segregation, blacks and whites have not been kept apart. Most people are a mix of both black and white with some Native American mixed in. Many Puerto Ricans have family members who would be considered black in the US, so it is hard to be completely prejudicial toward a group that most likely includes some of your family members. That is not to say that Puerto Ricans cannot be prejudiced toward black people of other nationalities, such as African Americans or Dominicans, because they certainly can be, but overall, skin color isn't considered as important, such an indicator of fate as it is in the United States.

I do want to agree that yes, Mexico has deeper race divisions, than Puerto Rico. As a black Puerto Rican, I have been the target of more discrimination from Mexicans than whites and African Americans combined. Mexico may be diverse but there is sharp division between those who have (usually fair) and those who do not (usually darker) and that divide is much stronger than it is in Puerto Rico. No one is going to bat an eye at a black doctor in Puerto Rico but in California, I have seen recent Mexican immigrants display open hostility towards black Puerto Ricans who were more professionally successful than they were. This attitude is less prevalent among Mexicans who have been in the US for a while, so I suspect that these recent arrivals are bringing with them an attitude that is more prevalent to Mexico itself.
 
Old 10-22-2009, 08:21 AM
 
Location: DF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by loinonon View Post
Yes, there is a preference for all things lighter in Puerto Rico, but there is a greater acceptance (not just tolerance like in the US) of black people at the same time. Because there is no one drop rule and like the person above mentioned, history of segregation, blacks and whites have not been kept apart. Most people are a mix of both black and white with some Native American mixed in. Many Puerto Ricans have family members who would be considered black in the US, so it is hard to be completely prejudicial toward a group that most likely includes some of your family members. That is not to say that Puerto Ricans cannot be prejudiced toward black people of other nationalities, such as African Americans or Dominicans, because they certainly can be, but overall, skin color isn't considered as important, such an indicator of fate as it is in the United States.

I do want to agree that yes, Mexico has deeper race divisions, than Puerto Rico. As a black Puerto Rican, I have been the target of more discrimination from Mexicans than whites and African Americans combined. Mexico may be diverse but there is sharp division between those who have (usually fair) and those who do not (usually darker) and that divide is much stronger than it is in Puerto Rico. No one is going to bat an eye at a black doctor in Puerto Rico but in California, I have seen recent Mexican immigrants display open hostility towards black Puerto Ricans who were more professionally successful than they were. This attitude is less prevalent among Mexicans who have been in the US for a while, so I suspect that these recent arrivals are bringing with them an attitude that is more prevalent to Mexico itself.
If you ever encounter a Mexican who displays "OPEN HOSTILITY" towards Blacks remind them that Vicente Guerrero and Jose Maria Morelos (National heroes in Mexico) were zambos. (Black, White, indian). Also, the Mexican governor of California before it was ceded to the U.S. (Pio Pico) was
a black man. LOL! It's not deep seeded hatred... there's not A LOT of black people in Mexico. So It's just ignorance.

Also... just like Puerto Ricans... if a Mexican has a black grandchild... they almost always accept and love the kid no matter what their opinions were before.
 
Old 10-22-2009, 08:54 PM
 
2,880 posts, read 3,420,269 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
If you ever encounter a Mexican who displays "OPEN HOSTILITY" towards Blacks remind them that Vicente Guerrero and Jose Maria Morelos (National heroes in Mexico) were zambos. (Black, White, indian). Also, the Mexican governor of California before it was ceded to the U.S. (Pio Pico) was
a black man. LOL! It's not deep seeded hatred... there's not A LOT of black people in Mexico. So It's just ignorance.

Also... just like Puerto Ricans... if a Mexican has a black grandchild... they almost always accept and love the kid no matter what their opinions were before.
Yeah right Joleado!!! Please. I've experienced first had Mexican's disdain for people who have black blood in them. Hah!

The very first non-English speaking Mexican whom I met in San Diego California asked me where I was from. When I replied Puerto Rico, the first words out of his mouth were..."tienes sangre de NEGRO." Being the naive person I was, I assumed he was acknowledging what I was so proud of. Little did I realize he was trying to belittle me.

I spent a week in Guanajuato with a friend and her local family in the 90's. The things I heard from her family regarding people with black blood did not surprise me. Given that my "friend" understood my racial background, she did her best to change the course of that one single conversation. I told her not to worry. Besides, I liked her too much to let such ignorance bother me. Words like "monos and monas" were freely tossed around in reference to blacks. And mind you, these weren't uneducated peasants. One was a medical doctor, another an industrial engineer, and the third a trilingual college professor.

I beg to differ with you on this notion of so-called "racially enlightened" Mexicans.
 
Old 10-23-2009, 08:28 AM
 
Location: DF
758 posts, read 2,004,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
Yeah right Joleado!!! Please. I've experienced first had Mexican's disdain for people who have black blood in them. Hah!

The very first non-English speaking Mexican whom I met in San Diego California asked me where I was from. When I replied Puerto Rico, the first words out of his mouth were..."tienes sangre de NEGRO." Being the naive person I was, I assumed he was acknowledging what I was so proud of. Little did I realize he was trying to belittle me.

I spent a week in Guanajuato with a friend and her local family in the 90's. The things I heard from her family regarding people with black blood did not surprise me. Given that my "friend" understood my racial background, she did her best to change the course of that one single conversation. I told her not to worry. Besides, I liked her too much to let such ignorance bother me. Words like "monos and monas" were freely tossed around in reference to blacks. And mind you, these weren't uneducated peasants. One was a medical doctor, another an industrial engineer, and the third a trilingual college professor.

I beg to differ with you on this notion of so-called "racially enlightened" Mexicans.
See this is where I know you're lying. Monkey in Mexican Spanish is CHANGO AND CHANGA. Mono and Mona is used for "DOLLS" or "CUTE". i.e. "Está bien mono ese wey" In the rest of the spanish speaking world, mono and mona are monkeys.

And you really do need to read my posts CHACHO. I never once said Mexicans were racially enlightened. I am quite aware that there is ignorance among Mexicans when it comes to black people... simply put there's not a lot of black people in Mexico anymore. It'll be the same hostility u'll get if you go to China.

What I said was, "If a Mexican is racially hostile towards u if ur black, remind them that two of their national heroes were black" There's even STATES named after them in Mexico.
 
Old 10-23-2009, 09:49 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelaldo View Post
See this is where I know you're lying. Monkey in Mexican Spanish is CHANGO AND CHANGA. Mono and Mona is used for "DOLLS" or "CUTE". i.e. "Está bien mono ese wey" In the rest of the spanish speaking world, mono and mona are monkeys.

And you really do need to read my posts CHACHO. I never once said Mexicans were racially enlightened. I am quite aware that there is ignorance among Mexicans when it comes to black people... simply put there's not a lot of black people in Mexico anymore. It'll be the same hostility u'll get if you go to China.

What I said was, "If a Mexican is racially hostile towards u if ur black, remind them that two of their national heroes were black" There's even STATES named after them in Mexico.
Well, then I stand corrected. But, "mono and mona" where the words they used in reference, not only to blacks during that one and only conversation, but they also used the term "mona" in reference to their maid.

However, given the tone of that brief conversation, I seriously doubt they were referring to blacks as "dolls."
 
Old 10-26-2009, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,810,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
Well, then I stand corrected. But, "mono and mona" where the words they used in reference, not only to blacks during that one and only conversation, but they also used the term "mona" in reference to their maid.

However, given the tone of that brief conversation, I seriously doubt they were referring to blacks as "dolls."
I agree. I have distinctly heard Mexicans and Mexican Americans refer to African descendants as "mono" and "mona," in Mexico, California, and New Jersey. There was no mistaking the connotation, and it was not a diminutive or a term of endearment.
 
Old 10-27-2009, 07:09 AM
 
Location: DF
758 posts, read 2,004,532 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
I agree. I have distinctly heard Mexicans and Mexican Americans refer to African descendants as "mono" and "mona," in Mexico, California, and New Jersey. There was no mistaking the connotation, and it was not a diminutive or a term of endearment.
That's very interesting because we don't use that word! Maybe there was no mistaking the connotation, but there was definitely mistaking the nationality. We don't use MONO for monkeys.

Mexican Spanish vocabulary

Not saying a large swath of Mexicans don't have ignorant views of blacks (poor people IN GENERAL don't have enlightened world views, fyi) ... just pointing out an irregularity.
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