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Old 03-18-2008, 04:24 AM
 
Location: The Great State of Arkansas
5,981 posts, read 16,645,382 times
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Moderator:

Again, this topic is whether the U.S. Territory of Puerto Rico is racially integrated. The OP was actually worded for two different type questions.

I'll allow discussions on the integration, but I'm failing to make the connection between some of the posts and what they have to do specifically with Puerto Rico. If comments are not restricted to PR, then this whole thread needs to go in Politics and Controversies, World, general topics, or somewhere else.

People - please remember this is primarily a relocation forum...others are seeking ideas on relocating. If we veer greatly off topic, no one gets the info they originally set out to get, which doesn't help the anything. It is called hijacking a thread, and is against the Terms of Service. So please - limit your questions and answers to those things specifically to do with PR and start another thread in another forum on the off topics.

Thank you.


 
Old 01-16-2009, 02:33 PM
 
11 posts, read 77,271 times
Reputation: 15
Default Another opinion

hindsight2020 wrote:

The influx of "Dominicanos" into Puerto Rico can be described by paralleling it with rural Mexicans crossing the border into the United States. Most want better wages and, of course, the chance at becoming US citizens. The response from the folks in PR has been similar as in the states with regards to illegal mexicans. Most Dominicanos are looked at by PR folks as racially inferior, since Dominicans are more predominantly of the black, mulato(black/white) or zambo(black/indigenous) flavor, more so than mestizo(white/indigenous) or straight up white; although once again, you go to Santo Domingo and/or other popular destinations and be amazed at the fact that they too are racially diverse. When they get to the island they take up mostly manual labor jobs at even further depressed wages. They live in ghettos like present day Rio Piedras city proper, and perpetuate the alienation that paints them in a more negative light.

I'd have to disagree with "Most Dominicanos are looked at by PR folks as racially inferior, since Dominicans are more predominantly of the black, mulato(black/white) or zambo(black/indigenous) flavor, more so than mestizo(white/indigenous) or straight up white". It is true many, but "most"? There was a whole lot of Zambo going on in PR that is not acknowledged. That is because after the Haitian revolution, PR went into defense mode to prevent a riot by the Natives and began the “Hispanidad Movement”. Every native in PR was told they are Puerto Ricans now and when census data was taken they were told to mark “white”. This provided not only false data but a mental perception the natives had died off. I don’t disagree with mixing but to assume everyone did and is why a large portion of the island looks like Penelope Cruz is disingenuous.

A Dominican woman nursed my grandmother at the catholic hospice she was being cared for during her last months (circa 2004) and I have nothing but admiration for the general work ethics of those Dominicans I've encountered. That is not to say that Rio Piedras (South of San Juan) has become a Dominican ghetto and that's one of the reasons folks from the island are not too pleased with the influx. With the ghetto comes internal crime, which also spills over to the more common native PR drug trafficking problem, which now has poor Dominicans to add to the labor mix. Is the influx going away? Hardly. So it's an ongoing problem that the island will have to add to its already full plate of things to fix. Who knows what it will look like in another decade.

Not just the labor mix, but crime as well according to FBI reports. Additional resentment comes from the fact that PR is a TINY island compared to beautiful Quisqueya; so tiny 100,000 Dominicans IS a danger to the modern PR identity and existence.

As to the other poster's question about newyoricans. I think anybody whose followed the history and migration of Puerto Ricans to the mainland in the mid 20th century can safely say that the majority of those present-day second and third generation newyoricans are racially a mix of whatever they were when they left the island (majority mestizo and mulato..I hate to use old colonial racial descriptors but it's the easiest way to simplify) and what folks in the mainland call "interacial" i.e. Hispanic (in the eyes of mainlanders) and African Americans. The key here is the black influence in the cultural and racial markup of what previously was a purely Caribbean cultural identity.

That’s true but not everyone who arrived in the mainland was mixed. Hispanic does not imply interracial but that didn’t stop USA from thinking it was based on what they saw. Their narrow observations were that many mixed before it was in mode, but none can say everyone did. No one has 3 parents, 1 Euro, 1 African, 1 Indian; and one European great grandfather does not make you half European or 1/3 European. It makes you 1/6 and does not override or should not stop you from acknowledging the other 5/6th.

Hispanics are anyone who are born from any of the Spanish speaking nations in the western hemisphere, speaks Spanish and/or has ancestry, but who are not Spaniards from Spain If they want to call Antonio Banderas "Hispanic" he's not going to have a fit over what people wish to call him. Hispanics could be a Black Cuban, Black Rican, Indian Dominican, Black Dominican, Indian Rican, mixed Afro-Indian, Criollos de Puerto Rico, Argentine with Italian or Jewish-German ancestry, Chilean-German Jews like Don Francisco, Mexican Indian or Mexican born with direct European Ancestry, etc.


This is the main difference from first-generation migration examples (such as myself for example) even when such migrations occured 60 years apart. A newyorican is much more likely to speak of the island in possesive but have children who've never seen it. Their spanish is more properly spanglish. Their cultural day-to-day, in spite of the fact that it is self-assesed to be "puertorro" (slang for Puerto Rican), is more properly urban and in line with the burough living reality of NYC (de facto black) when assesed from a native islander. Don't tell Rosie Perez or J. Lo that, but they make the case for itself. As to why the original racial markup of those to become newyoricans did not include more whites, I can't really offer a historically accepted reason other than highlighting the usual suspects of the race/socioeconomic level relationship of forever, particularly in 1950s Puerto Rico.


Again I have to disagree. My mother came from the island in 1942. She never was a Nuyorican and it was she who spoke with possessive language, while I inherit and adoration for it as well as visited and lived there for a couple of years. The children born in NYC tagged themselves Nuyoricans and are considered such for being born in NY. What do you call a Rican who were born and raised in Cali, Chicago, Philly? Nuyoricans? My son is not Nuyorican. He was born in Queens, but I raised him in several states. A 2nd generation Nuyorican he is not. Rosie makes the case for it because she has an affection being a Nuyorican, Jlo is a 2nd generation Nuyorican as is evident of her disassociation in knowledge of what it is to be PR. I’m sorry Rosie did not tapped into her African and Indian roots in her documentary and I didn’t agree with everything she said, but I do have to acknowledge her tapping into several issues and affection as is her right.

Spanglish is not a language. It is nothing more than speaking two languages in conversation or in one sentence aka Code switching; and when a word is not known like “Leak”, “Likeo” is used in place of the not known translation. The borrowing of a word in the dominant language is called Calquing. In fact some of those words have been picked up by PR natives through music and/or entered the island with the 1970s reverse migration to PR when Puerto Ricans returned with their Nuyorican children to the island. The practice of code switch and calque is also normal with Chinese-American kids and many Europeans who speak two languages. It diminishes with the next generation or depending on the popular usage, changes the dominant language ever so slightly they way English changes with time.

How can I say this? Puerto Ricans speak a dialect continuua of another dialect of Latin which is Spanish, closely associated with Los Islenos in St. Bernard Parish; New Orleans who like some Jibaros are decendants of the Canary Islands via Cedula De Gracias immigration order. This dialect became the dominant dialect and like all dialects in each nation assimilated local words. The dialect is identified as Trade Winds Spanish and is spoken by people in the Caribbean with slight differences,


Clear as mud?

Last edited by Janemas; 01-16-2009 at 03:16 PM..
 
Old 01-18-2009, 10:06 AM
 
1,772 posts, read 4,072,123 times
Reputation: 4740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janemas View Post
..Clear as mud?
I don't think you're disagreeing with me as much as you're disagreeing with mainland's cultural pigeonholing of Puerto Ricans in the mainland, you being of subsequent generational descent as the people I highlighted from the first migration wave. Look, you can disagree with me all you want about PR folks in the island considering Dominicanos racially inferior, but I was born and grew up in the island and know this from first experience. Your argument that Puerto Ricans have no place to have such an attitude based on their own racial makeup ambiguities is noted, and so is your indignation towards such an attitude, but that does not negate the past and current social dynamics I exposed in my previous post. I wasn't being normative (what things SHOULD be), I was being positive (what things ARE).

As to the social label of those who relocated to philly, West Mass, Chicago etc we're just playing semantics. The only reason NYC is the cultural label for such a social dynamic is because it was the primary relocation center for such migratory waves. It does not, once again, negate that both in NYC and other urban centers, said Puerto Ricans by virtue of lack of education and a racial common denominator of the median Puerto Rican that emigrated back then (in 1950, mestizo, the people who predominantly emigrated, equaled BLACK to the median mainlander, you can disagree with that all you want) associated with the urban black population in a substantial enough fashion to adopt many of the linguistic and cultural idiosyncrasies that became iconic of the newyorican label. What you do after that is your prerogative. I find it quite telling you assert people labeled themselves "newyoricans", again semantics seems to be important to you. People labeled themselves as such, sure, but it wasn't a de-coupled insignificant personal choice on the part of newyoricans, it was rather their very cultural identity as a function of the undeniable contribution of african-american culture to their social context along their Hispanic (Puerto Rican in this case) mainframe provided by their parents, that created such a label.

Here's another telling anectode in support of my point. My father did a stint living in NYC during the 70s while pursuing graduate school and the biggest cultural clash came not from mainlanders, black or white alike , but from "Puerto Ricans" of second generation who did not either 1)identify with nor 2)considered my father genuinely Puerto Rican. Here's the irony of the decade, a Newyorican telling a Puerto Rican he is not culturally genuine! And you know why? Because my father (the first generation Puerto Rican) did not associate with the spanglish, the cultural leaning towards african-american idiosyncrasies (clothing, appearance), disavowed your aforementioned "affection" as pure cultural crutching, and for lacking said desire to parade flags, overemphasize cultural foods he'd eaten ad nauseam and pointlessly throw pr slang from the island in the prescence of non-spanish speakers was perceived and labeled by the newyoricans as a "whitewashed", and not a "boricua". In other words, that is the accusation on the part of the newyorican that my father looked and acted white. Bryan Gumbel hispanic reference parallel anybody? This is 1970s NYC, JLo and Rosie Perez ignorant cultural tokenism-for-their-own-benefit wasn't even in the picture back then. But hey, we can try covering the sun with one hand, I digress, the proof is in the pudding.

Look, I'm not suggesting a second generation Puerto Rican is doomed to being represented by 'newyoricanism', there is a choice. If you were successful in leaving the boroughs and raising your children outside the cultural reference of a newyorican, great. Your kids are not defined by the cultural characteristics of a newyorican. But don't tell me newyorican is "in the eye of the beholder" and is a cultural misnomer, as if I was imagining the sea of people all over this continent with more Puerto Rican flags and bumper stickers in their car they can't even look through the windshield, who don't speak the language, play music they don't even understand the cultural origin for, and insist in more than a friendly "affection" (as you put it) of the cultural tokens that actively disassociate them from mainstream American culture and fund part of their cultural and economic dispossesion. All the while a first generation Puerto Rican like myself just waltzes in with a Delta ticket stub with "San Juan-Atlanta" on it and is able to assimilate, accomplish educational goals and competitive employment without the benefit of 50+ freggin years of geographical co-location as our flag waving peers.

Is Puerto Rico a racially integrated place or is it like Mexico-editgroup.jpg

Can you spot the Puerto Rican in the picture? No? That's the point. Newyoricans (which culturally ecompass their contemporaries in Chicago, philly, west mass, and the west coast as well), much more than disecting their own cultural identity, INSIST in shoving down everybody's throat their "puertoricanhood" in spite of the obvious cultural dilution that has occured, but can't take the heat when history reminds them of their historically asserted association with present day african-american cultural idiosincracies that are, unfortunately, still viewed in the eyes of the average american as inferior qualities in the Plantation we call this country.

For that reason (to make the mods happy), the island is much more racially integrated than second and third generation Puerto Ricans in the mainland are, and they certainly have much less to prove from a cultural perspective. I do believe that Puerto Ricans faced and continue to face discrimination in the CONUS as a function of racial ambiguity from the perspective of the white population, never mind the animosity non-citizen Hispanics have against Puerto Ricans, and Cubans for other reasons for another thread. But a lot of the plight of intergenerational Puerto Ricans in the mainland is self-inflicted, that assertion of course lands me in "whitewahshed" jail as a first generation emigrant, but it makes it no less true. We agree to disagree.

P.S. If you can find me in the picture above the next beer is on me...
 
Old 01-18-2009, 01:15 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,676,310 times
Reputation: 1679
^^ Fanstastic post. Rep. points to you!^^
 
Old 01-28-2009, 03:27 PM
 
1,084 posts, read 3,306,031 times
Reputation: 501
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
I don't think you're disagreeing with me as much as you're disagreeing with mainland's cultural pigeonholing of Puerto Ricans in the mainland, you being of subsequent generational descent as the people I highlighted from the first migration wave. Look, you can disagree with me all you want about PR folks in the island considering Dominicanos racially inferior, but I was born and grew up in the island and know this from first experience. Your argument that Puerto Ricans have no place to have such an attitude based on their own racial makeup ambiguities is noted, and so is your indignation towards such an attitude, but that does not negate the past and current social dynamics I exposed in my previous post. I wasn't being normative (what things SHOULD be), I was being positive (what things ARE).

As to the social label of those who relocated to philly, West Mass, Chicago etc we're just playing semantics. The only reason NYC is the cultural label for such a social dynamic is because it was the primary relocation center for such migratory waves. It does not, once again, negate that both in NYC and other urban centers, said Puerto Ricans by virtue of lack of education and a racial common denominator of the median Puerto Rican that emigrated back then (in 1950, mestizo, the people who predominantly emigrated, equaled BLACK to the median mainlander, you can disagree with that all you want) associated with the urban black population in a substantial enough fashion to adopt many of the linguistic and cultural idiosyncrasies that became iconic of the newyorican label. What you do after that is your prerogative. I find it quite telling you assert people labeled themselves "newyoricans", again semantics seems to be important to you. People labeled themselves as such, sure, but it wasn't a de-coupled insignificant personal choice on the part of newyoricans, it was rather their very cultural identity as a function of the undeniable contribution of african-american culture to their social context along their Hispanic (Puerto Rican in this case) mainframe provided by their parents, that created such a label.

Here's another telling anectode in support of my point. My father did a stint living in NYC during the 70s while pursuing graduate school and the biggest cultural clash came not from mainlanders, black or white alike , but from "Puerto Ricans" of second generation who did not either 1)identify with nor 2)considered my father genuinely Puerto Rican. Here's the irony of the decade, a Newyorican telling a Puerto Rican he is not culturally genuine! And you know why? Because my father (the first generation Puerto Rican) did not associate with the spanglish, the cultural leaning towards african-american idiosyncrasies (clothing, appearance), disavowed your aforementioned "affection" as pure cultural crutching, and for lacking said desire to parade flags, overemphasize cultural foods he'd eaten ad nauseam and pointlessly throw pr slang from the island in the prescence of non-spanish speakers was perceived and labeled by the newyoricans as a "whitewashed", and not a "boricua". In other words, that is the accusation on the part of the newyorican that my father looked and acted white. Bryan Gumbel hispanic reference parallel anybody? This is 1970s NYC, JLo and Rosie Perez ignorant cultural tokenism-for-their-own-benefit wasn't even in the picture back then. But hey, we can try covering the sun with one hand, I digress, the proof is in the pudding.

Look, I'm not suggesting a second generation Puerto Rican is doomed to being represented by 'newyoricanism', there is a choice. If you were successful in leaving the boroughs and raising your children outside the cultural reference of a newyorican, great. Your kids are not defined by the cultural characteristics of a newyorican. But don't tell me newyorican is "in the eye of the beholder" and is a cultural misnomer, as if I was imagining the sea of people all over this continent with more Puerto Rican flags and bumper stickers in their car they can't even look through the windshield, who don't speak the language, play music they don't even understand the cultural origin for, and insist in more than a friendly "affection" (as you put it) of the cultural tokens that actively disassociate them from mainstream American culture and fund part of their cultural and economic dispossesion. All the while a first generation Puerto Rican like myself just waltzes in with a Delta ticket stub with "San Juan-Atlanta" on it and is able to assimilate, accomplish educational goals and competitive employment without the benefit of 50+ freggin years of geographical co-location as our flag waving peers.

Attachment 34387

Can you spot the Puerto Rican in the picture? No? That's the point. Newyoricans (which culturally ecompass their contemporaries in Chicago, philly, west mass, and the west coast as well), much more than disecting their own cultural identity, INSIST in shoving down everybody's throat their "puertoricanhood" in spite of the obvious cultural dilution that has occured, but can't take the heat when history reminds them of their historically asserted association with present day african-american cultural idiosincracies that are, unfortunately, still viewed in the eyes of the average american as inferior qualities in the Plantation we call this country.

For that reason (to make the mods happy), the island is much more racially integrated than second and third generation Puerto Ricans in the mainland are, and they certainly have much less to prove from a cultural perspective. I do believe that Puerto Ricans faced and continue to face discrimination in the CONUS as a function of racial ambiguity from the perspective of the white population, never mind the animosity non-citizen Hispanics have against Puerto Ricans, and Cubans for other reasons for another thread. But a lot of the plight of intergenerational Puerto Ricans in the mainland is self-inflicted, that assertion of course lands me in "whitewahshed" jail as a first generation emigrant, but it makes it no less true. We agree to disagree.

P.S. If you can find me in the picture above the next beer is on me...

Great post, I agree with many things you've said.

By the way, my guess is that your either the second or third person (starting from the left side).
 
Old 01-28-2009, 08:23 PM
 
1,772 posts, read 4,072,123 times
Reputation: 4740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Busch Boy View Post
Great post, I agree with many things you've said.

By the way, my guess is that your either the second or third person (starting from the left side).
LOL close enough. I'm the fourth from the left. But if I can pass for a GA guy then my point is made...From left to right state of origin are
KY, PA, GA, PR, NC, HI.
 
Old 01-28-2009, 08:51 PM
 
Location: D/FW METRO AREA
60 posts, read 255,069 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ_singlemother View Post
Puerto Rico is far more diverse than Mexico.
IMHO Mexico is just as diverse as Puerto Rico. And it has nothing to do with Mexican's crossing the border either. Spain obviously is part of their make up. So let's put them a side.

Jews, entered in 1500's
Blacks and mulattoes (slaves), left there in 1600's
Mennonites (Dutch heritage), made it down from Canada in the 1920's
Chinese, came over early 20th century

And there's so many (over 50) different indigenous groups with their own unique language, Mayan's are the most recognized. The list goes on from Ireland, France and even Lebanese settlers. Including Cubans who choose to go through Mexico in hopes to make it a cross the border to the U.S.

I think it's safe to say that all of the above countries have made their way around the globe. However, people fail to think of Mexico as being an ethnically diverse country because it's likely that most of the people you come in contact with (those who crossed over) are indigenous. But that doesn't mean we all look the same. Trust me, we come in all shapes, sizes, colors and flavors too!

When I visit NYC I'm ALWAYS mistaken for being Puerto Rican. I find it humorous because it seems that New Yorkers have only been exposed to one "type" of Mexican. For example: Salma Hayek, Edward James Olmos, Kat Von D from LA Ink, Eva Langoria, Anthony Quinn, Jessica Alba....all of whom were either born in Mexico or are of Mexican descent.....not excluding the fact they have other blood running through their veins.

Which is the point of this topic....ethnic diversity.

P.S. I'm Mexican and my boyfriend is from Puerto Rico. lol

Last edited by BESITOSDECOCO; 01-28-2009 at 09:05 PM..
 
Old 01-31-2009, 02:06 AM
 
11 posts, read 77,271 times
Reputation: 15
Default Don't be so mad

hindsight2020: I don't think you're disagreeing with me as much as you're disagreeing with mainland's cultural pigeonholing of Puerto Ricans in the mainland, you being of subsequent generational descent as the people I highlighted from the first migration wave.

Some opinions I do and some I don't. I hope your not one of those who do the "de aqui y de alla"?

Look, you can disagree with me all you want about PR folks in the island considering Dominicanos racially inferior, but I was born and grew up in the island and know this from first experience.

And I lived there and been there many times and most importantly know the statistics of marriages between PR's and DR's on the island. No doubt there are many who make comments about DR's on the island like you said. What I disagreed with was "most", unless of course there was a complete study of every town on the island concerning each and everyone's feelings towards DR's you know about and I don't? Now if the question was on illegal DRs or other nationalities, I'm sure the stats would be higher.

Your argument that Puerto Ricans have no place to have such an attitude based on their own racial makeup ambiguities is noted,

Make yourself clearer than that.

and so is your indignation towards such an attitude, but that does not negate the past and current social dynamics I exposed in my previous post. I wasn't being normative (what things SHOULD be), I was being positive (what things ARE).

An assumption based on your perception of whatever it was your accusing me of. Your making accusations without facts, relevance and validity (indignation) or proof as a representative of the majority. You are only a percentage of a group who represents your feelings.

As to the social label of those who relocated to philly, West Mass, Chicago etc we're just playing semantics. The only reason NYC is the cultural label for such a social dynamic is because it was the primary relocation center for such migratory waves.

New York Rican.

It does not, once again, negate that both in NYC and other urban centers, said Puerto Ricans by virtue of lack of education and a racial common denominator of the median Puerto Rican that emigrated back then (in 1950, mestizo, the people who predominantly emigrated, equaled BLACK to the median mainlander,

In reference to afro-ricans yes! But not the non-african or non-indian rican. You could pass my mother on the street and not know she is Puerto Rican and that is because like all USA citizens, we too come in different shades and from different ancestors.

Here's my nephew in PR:


Here's my 80 year old mother who arrive in 1942.


And here's my only son:


Would you pass any of them in the streets and think "Puerto Rican"? I don't know what your point was in posting your picture but blue eyed and blond is not obsolete in Puerto Rican.

you can disagree with that all you want) associated with the urban black population in a substantial enough fashion to adopt many of the linguistic and cultural idiosyncrasies that became iconic of the newyorican label.

What are you tawking about? Born in Harlem and raised in Brooklyn my linguistics traits are Brooklynese thanks to my Jewish teachers. Our Italians, Irish and Jewish neighborhood friends all spoke with the same accent and linguistic traits. It was the SUB-CULTURE of the time. Blacks coming mainly from the south did not have a Brooklynese accent and rarely did any of the their children. The Nuyorican's kids culture is another story because it is a different culture! Bingo! The black culture was too rooted in language for them to speak with a New York Accent. You rarely, maybe 1 in 10,000, find a black person speaking like a Soprano. Being Nuyorican is having that accent. You have no idea what a Nuyorican is with your attempt to link Ebonics to what is really Brooklynese. Ebonics has a history in Gullah/Geechee where most black in NY came from.

Gullah Pride Intro

What you do after that is your prerogative. I find it quite telling you assert people labeled themselves "newyoricans", again semantics seems to be important to you. People labeled themselves as such, sure, but it wasn't a de-coupled insignificant personal choice on the part of newyoricans, it was rather their very cultural identity as a function of the undeniable contribution of african-american culture to their social context along their Hispanic (Puerto Rican in this case) mainframe provided by their parents, that created such a label.

What's your argument here your all over the place? You want to accuse me of something? At least refer to my comments and quote it rather than go off the road.

Here's another telling anectode in support of my point. My father did a stint living in NYC during the 70s while pursuing graduate school and the biggest cultural clash came not from mainlanders, black or white alike , but from "Puerto Ricans" of second generation who did not either 1)identify with nor 2)considered my father genuinely Puerto Rican.

That is nothing new. Go study migration and immigration and you will find many ethnic groups have members or friends who make the same charges. Black on black, Chinese on Chinese, etc.

Here's the irony of the decade, a Newyorican telling a Puerto Rican he is not culturally genuine! And you know why? Because my father (the first generation Puerto Rican) did not associate with the spanglish, the cultural leaning towards african-american idiosyncrasies (clothing, appearance), disavowed your aforementioned "affection" as pure cultural crutching, and for lacking said desire to parade flags, overemphasize cultural foods he'd eaten ad nauseam and pointlessly throw pr slang from the island in the prescence of non-spanish speakers was perceived and labeled by the newyoricans as a "whitewashed", and not a "boricua".

So you have the intelligence to label one or a couple of experiences your daddy had on everyone and LABEL THEM as they did your daddy? Look who's calling the kettle black? This is not worthy of an argument.

In other words, that is the accusation on the part of the newyorican that my father looked and acted white. Bryan Gumbel hispanic reference parallel anybody? This is 1970s NYC, JLo and Rosie Perez ignorant cultural tokenism-for-their-own-benefit wasn't even in the picture back then. But hey, we can try covering the sun with one hand, I digress, the proof is in the pudding.

Like I said, not worthy. You have issues, or your pissed. Heck I've been pissed at how some Puerto Ricans hate being associated with esa gente. That is called classism. You bumped into a few ignorant (not stupid) people and this is your conclusion? You know how many PR's pissed me off? Yet I have the capacity to not lump everyone in one group. This is a very important factor if your analysis is to be taken seriously.

Look, I'm not suggesting a second generation Puerto Rican is doomed to being represented by 'newyoricanism', there is a choice. If you were successful in leaving the boroughs and raising your children outside the cultural reference of a newyorican, great. Your kids are not defined by the cultural characteristics of a newyorican. But don't tell me newyorican is "in the eye of the beholder" and is a cultural misnomer, as if I was imagining the sea of people all over this continent with more Puerto Rican flags and bumper stickers in their car they can't even look through the windshield, who don't speak the language, play music they don't even understand the cultural origin for, and insist in more than a friendly "affection" (as you put it) of the cultural tokens that actively disassociate them from mainstream American culture and fund part of their cultural and economic dispossesion. All the while a first generation Puerto Rican like myself just waltzes in with a Delta ticket stub with "San Juan-Atlanta" on it and is able to assimilate, accomplish educational goals and competitive employment without the benefit of 50+ freggin years of geographical co-location as our flag waving peers.

You need to stop using the ghettos as your only source for Nuyoricanism. You need to speak to a few professors at Hunter College who are Nuyorican. Looking at FOX news on PR ghetto crimes has distorted what those of the generation Jones have done with themselves. Writers, artists, actors, doctors, lawyers, FBI and DEA agents, etc. Mijo I haven't attended a parade ever since the Puerto Ricans from the island in the 1980s came to NY and screwed it up. It use to be a nice parade where people would dress in their Sunday best as did other ethnic parades, but this new flow is the jala jala crowd. Look at PR? There's a lot of crime there and not all DRs are to blame. That Regaton crappy attitude Island born PR love to flash is an embarassment. But heck that's just my opinion.

Attachment 34387

Can you spot the Puerto Rican in the picture? No? That's the point. Newyoricans (which culturally ecompass their contemporaries in Chicago, philly, west mass, and the west coast as well), much more than disecting their own cultural identity, INSIST in shoving down everybody's throat their "puertoricanhood" in spite of the obvious cultural dilution that has occured, but can't take the heat when history reminds them of their historically asserted association with present day african-american cultural idiosincracies that are, unfortunately, still viewed in the eyes of the average american as inferior qualities in the Plantation we call this country.

Is this a sub forum for Stormfront for Hispanics?

For that reason (to make the mods happy), the island is much more racially integrated than second and third generation Puerto Ricans in the mainland are, and they certainly have much less to prove from a cultural perspective. I do believe that Puerto Ricans faced and continue to face discrimination in the CONUS as a function of racial ambiguity from the perspective of the white population, never mind the animosity non-citizen Hispanics have against Puerto Ricans, and Cubans for other reasons for another thread. But a lot of the plight of intergenerational Puerto Ricans in the mainland is self-inflicted, that assertion of course lands me in "whitewahshed" jail as a first generation emigrant, but it makes it no less true. We agree to disagree.

What does that have to do with me? Feel free to blow heat.

P.S. If you can find me in the picture above the next beer is on me...

Well that wasn't fair because I could do the same and you wouldn't find me without a clue. What was the point? Your caucasian? I'm not surprised. Just thank God your not ugly. Anyone could be caucasian and ugly you know.

P.S. I spent 8 years in the Military, have 3 Westpacs (one of them Gulf War I) under my belt, and was stationed in Korea, Dubai and Subase Bangor.

Last edited by Janemas; 01-31-2009 at 02:32 AM..
 
Old 02-03-2009, 03:06 PM
 
216 posts, read 469,758 times
Reputation: 75
Quote:


Can you spot the Puerto Rican in the picture?
I can, the Puerto Rican is the guy in the far right who has the darkest skin out of the entire group.
 
Old 02-03-2009, 04:46 PM
 
1,772 posts, read 4,072,123 times
Reputation: 4740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean Winchester View Post
I can, the Puerto Rican is the guy in the far right who has the darkest skin out of the entire group.
LOL. He's Hawaiian but I'll call him and let him know you offered him a compliment.....

I'll assume you made the post in jest since the answer was provided earlier in the thread......

--break break--

Janemas,

It's clear we sit on different sides of the aisle when it comes to the cultural fitting of second+ generation Puerto Rican descendants in the CONUS. You effectively accuse me of only seeing Nuyoricans from a skewed ebonic-centric looking glass and that the fact I'm island-borne further skews my lack of appreciation for the cultural shortcomings mainland borne Puerto Ricans in the CONUS suffer due to the alleged misunderstanding of history. I disagree, obviously. I argue your assertion of african-american-free nuyorican experience is as much of a statistical token as perhaps I myself am as a first generation Puerto Rican living in the CONUS outside of the major historical metropolitan areas where Boricuas and Nuyoricans alike have become affiliated with by the white population.

Since it seems to be more of a referendum between me and you, wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuyoric..._other_Latinos tends to highlight the impact of the african-american experience in the cultural benchmarking of nuyoricans, it actually goes farther than I did by suggesting said african-american influences are not as characteristic of second generation puerto ricans who grew up in other urban centers, or other regions of the country....what would be considered L.A., Chicago, Dallas, Houston, Orlando, Miami and then even more dramatically different for the PR tokens in the , those who live in wichita/ oklahoma city/ dallas/ spokane/ shreveport/ indianapolis..you get the picture.

Look, in no way did I suggest the african-american experience solely defines nuyoricanism, but you act more indignant about the implication than I did. I never intended to disavow the cultural influences of other ethnic groups in the construction of the nuyorican archetype, but you seem iconically resistant to the acknowledgment of black influence in the differences of culture and behavior that separate nuyoricans from other puerto ricans in the mainland....In that regard, whose stormfronting who? Me because it's coming out the mouth of a white hispanic, or you because it bothers you and reinforces my assertion that people in this country consider black affiliation second class social currency? Not accusing you, just saying you're fighting wikipedia (i.e. the numerically popular version of an argument) too. I don't see flags contesting the article's neutrality either, though I'm sure you'll enlighten us all on the endemic short-sightedness of wikipedia as a source of anything, to include my father's experience with nuyoricans that happen to reinforce said archetypes even in a time that precedes the use of nuyoricanism as a socially viable commercially-exploitable affair (JLO and Rosie Perez enter the picture). I respectfully submit my parents' experience in their time as well as my own in today's time tend to agree with the general points I've made about nuyoricanism, to include the sub-topic of the influence of the african-american experience in said cultural group. To the degrees of how much that is prevalent you and I will never agree upon as it apparently defines our very social currency in discrediting each other in that particular topic. Best of luck to you.
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