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Old 08-18-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,777,846 times
Reputation: 11780

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
It only took me 5 minutes to find this:

Black history in Puerto Rico - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Blacks in PR are better represented than in the US, and it wasn't because of affirmative action, but because of personal achievements.
If that is true - and it is not - it would only point to differences in the societies. But it is not true. African Americans are the most powerful, and the most affluent, black subgroup on Earth. In any event, I know that Wikipedia reference very well. I personally know many of these people's stories, because I have written about them. So, a short list of less than 50 successful black Puerto Ricans proves what? If you know nothing about the contributions of blacks to America's greatness, you have no business even attempting to argue with me on this thread. And what do you really know of the history of the civil rights movement and of affirmative action in the US? To me you sound like a typical right-wing person who really knows nothing of African Americans except for what you hear on Fox News or Rush Limbaugh.


Quote:
Personal experience. I lived in Camden, NJ. Less than 5% of the population there is white, about 50% is black and 45% is Hispanic. I worked between blacks. The white supervisors were afraid of reprimanding a black employee for fear of him making a discrimination complaint, which happened all too often.
Having lived in Camden County and worked in Philadelphia, I know Camden very well. You make the assumption that there is no legitimacy to discrimination complaints, when in actuality, they may be for real. I know that might be hard for you to get your mind around.

Quote:
On the other hand, whites and Hispanics were reprimanded all the time, even for minor stuff. Blacks in the USA are given more opportunities these days than anyone else. The fact that they don't move up the socioeconomic ladder says a lot about them.
So Camden, NJ is typical of the United States of America? Also, what opportunities are Blacks in the USA given that are more than anyone else's? Who has not moved up the socioeconomic ladder to your satisfaction? Last I heard, there was a black President of the US. Has there ever been a black Governor of Puerto Rico? A black Congressman representing Puerto Rico in Washington? How many black Puerto Ricans are in the island's assembly or Senate? Who is Puerto Rico's Martin Luther King figure?

Quote:

Even illegal Mexicans, which have no benefits at all and are also subject to discrimination are doing better than blacks.
[/quote]

First of all, they're illegal, so that in itself makes your argument pointless. Secondly, I would love to see the evidence, statistical, empirical or even anecdotal, which would uphold this contention. I'm black (African American, Cuban/Haitian) and I live in a very affluent neighborhood in Central New Jersey, and the only Mexicans I see, be them illegal or otherwise, are the guys that do our landscaping. They're not living in my neighborhood or going to school with my children. So where are all these rich illegal Mexicans?

 
Old 08-18-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,777,846 times
Reputation: 11780
Trucker7 - read this. It gives a great breakdown of why Puerto Rico's "racial democracy" myth is just that...........http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/eres...NTEL/duany.pdf
 
Old 08-18-2009, 04:15 PM
ncc
 
95 posts, read 275,859 times
Reputation: 62
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrkool View Post
I've always wondered about folks who think like you, and claim that "whites" or "Europeans" have this ability to dominate and hold other groups down?
In many places where whites have been accused of this, like Mexico, South Africa, and other places, they are only a small % of the population.
People with large amounts of white blood are a distinct minority in Mexico.
In South Africa, during apartheid there were only 4 million whites, and 25 million blacks, as I recall.
So in cases like this, how is it that such a minority can "hold down" such a majority?
Isn't it possible, just possible, that in many places whites have a disproportionate amount of power and privilege simply because they have a better aptitude at business, politics, etc.? Maybe it's not about "holding down" others, or any evil doings, but just simply ability and talents.
Otherwise, it's sort of hard to explain how small numbers of whites "hold down" larger numbers of other groups.
Can't wait to see the flak I'm going to get for suggesting this theory in response to the inflammatory comment about whites by the original poster.
If I get called "racist", then he/she had better also.
This happened in Haiti and look what happened, the weathly French landowners were overthrown by the slaves.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Scranton
1,384 posts, read 2,799,496 times
Reputation: 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
I'm black (African American, Cuban/Haitian) and I live in a very affluent neighborhood in Central New Jersey,...
So what are you doing in a PR/US Territories forum? I was born and raised in PR, lived there until I was 23. I got married there, to a black Puerto Rican no less, and had my first born there. I worked 4 years for the San Juan EMS and had many coworkers and supervisors who were black. Everyone got along regardless of race. My whole family is there. My experience with African-Americans has been the complete opposite. Even my wife, being black, tells me that African-Americans showed more racism towards her than whites. Just because you read a study or some article does not make you an expert about Puerto Rico.
 
Old 08-18-2009, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,777,846 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
So what are you doing in a PR/US Territories forum?
Because I want to be on the forum. Because I choose to be on the forum.
Why the hell are you living in the United States? According to your logic, that's just as legitimate a question.


Quote:
I was born and raised in PR, lived there until I was 23. I got married there, to a black Puerto Rican no less, and had my first born there. I worked 4 years for the San Juan EMS and had many coworkers and supervisors who were black.
Quote:
Everyone got along regardless of race. My whole family is there. My experience with African-Americans has been the complete opposite. Even my wife, being black, tells me that African-Americans showed more racism towards her than whites. Just because you read a study or some article does not make you an expert about Puerto Rico.
Just because you lived in Camden does not make you an expert on African Americans, nor does it qualify you to make idiotic comparisons of this population to Mexican illegal aliens. Besides, I have never claimed to be an expert on Puerto Rico. I do claim to be an expert on African Americans -and on Diaspora blacks in general - a subject you act like you know but have shown absolutely no knowledge of, except for parroting some stupid bs about how African Americans "have not advance socioeconomically."

I notice you have not answered a single question I have posed in rebuttal of your inane talking points, and that is simply because you have no answers. I have noticed a pattern when dealing with folks of your ilk; when their BS is confronted by someone in the know, they revert to ad hominem attacks and slick diversionary measures (such as attempting to attack my reason for being on a forum instead of responding to challenges of outrageous, unfounded statements).
 
Old 08-18-2009, 11:00 PM
 
Location: Scranton
1,384 posts, read 2,799,496 times
Reputation: 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
I find it fascinating that you paint Puerto Rico as this nirvana of racial integration, while it, like the rest of Latin America, continues to be a white supremacist society in which that which is African is subjugated to that which is Spanish, and that which is Taino is mythologized to the detriment of that which is African. Blacks in Puerto Rico are conscious of racism; I would argue, however, from dealing with black Puerto Ricans on the island and in the US, that much of the racism is simply internalized and directed inward. There are many blacks who are conscious of their heritage and their place in Puerto Rican history; there are plenty others who deny their blackness (a la Dominicans) and wish to lighten their children (by mating with lighter individuals with "good" hair) so they have a "better" appearance and, therefore, a "better" chance in life. Can you really sit there and tell me that black Puerto Ricans are well-represented in the universities, in the professions (law, business, medicine), in tourism, in media? Hell no, you can't. And if Puerto Rican blacks have it so wonderful in their home country (I know full well what the political status of the island is; this is a political statement), then why are the demographics of the island much less "black" than the demographics of Puerto Rican exiles in the U.S mainland?
In this post you presented yourself as an know-it-all on black Puerto Rican issues. I asked you about where you got your numbers of black P.Ricans in the US being more than Black P.Ricans in PR and I'm still waiting for a response. Why are you in this forum is a legit question since you're talking like you know more about PR than most Puerto Ricans who have lived on the island. I'm not going to go to the California forum and talk about their problems because I've never been there. And I live in the USA, because I'm a US citizen from birth and can choose to live wherever I want to.
 
Old 08-19-2009, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,777,846 times
Reputation: 11780
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
In this post you presented yourself as an know-it-all on black Puerto Rican issues.
How so?


Quote:
I asked you about where you got your numbers of black P.Ricans in the US being more than Black P.Ricans in PR and I'm still waiting for a response.
I sent you a link. BTW, I'm still waiting for some answers to my questions, as well as some data on that illegal Mexican vs. African American thing......................

*crickets*

Quote:
Why are you in this forum is a legit question since you're talking like you know more about PR than most Puerto Ricans who have lived on the island. I'm not going to go to the California forum and talk about their problems because I've never been there.
Great. Don't write about California. And while you're at it, don't write racist screeds about African Americans on any forum, because you've never been there either. As for what you say about me and what I said, that's your opinion. I do consider myself an expert on the Diaspora, and I know other experts on the Diaspora who will agree with this assessment.


Quote:
And I live in the USA, because I'm a US citizen from birth and can choose to live wherever I want to.
Yes, and I can choose to write about whatever I want to on whatever forum I want to. Deal with it.
 
Old 08-20-2009, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Center of the universe
24,672 posts, read 34,777,846 times
Reputation: 11780
Default Some quotes from Tego Calderon

Tego Calderon: Black Pride


"I remember, too, when Celia Cruz died, a newscaster, thinking she was being smart, said Celia Cruz wasn’t black, she was Cuban. She was pretty even though she’s black. As if there is something wrong with being black, like the two things can’t exist simultaneously and be a majestic thing. There is ignorance and stupidity in Puerto Rico and Latin America when it comes to blackness."

cont.

"And the thing is that many white Puerto Ricans and Latinos don’t get it. They are immune to the subtle ways in which we are demeaned, disrespected. They have white privilege. And I’ve heard it said that we are on the defensive about race. Those things happen and it’s not because of color, Tego, but because of how you look, how you walk, what you wear, what credit card you have. Then, they spend a couple of days with me, sort of walk in my shoes, and say “Damn negro, you are right.” When I check into hotels and use my American Express they call the credit card company in front of me saying the machine is broken. This happens a lot in U.S. cities but it’s not because there is more racism there, it’s because they don’t know me. When I’m in Latin America, I am known, so it’s different. That is not to say that there is less racism. The reality for blacks in Latin America is severe, in Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Honduras.....Puerto Rican (and Latin American) blacks are confused because we grow up side by side with non-blacks and we are lulled into believing that things are the same. But we are treated differently."


cont.

"Young black Latinos have to learn their story. We also need to start our own media, and forums and universities. We are treated like second class citizens. They tell blacks in Latin America that we are better off than U.S. blacks or Africans and that we have it better here, but it’s a false sense of being. Because here, it’s worse."

Sounds pretty doggone familiar. But I guess Tego doesn't know anything about Puerto Rico or black Puerto Ricans.

cont.

"They have raised us to be ashamed of our blackness. It’s in the language too. Take the word denigrate - denigrar - which is to be less than a negro. In Puerto Rico you get used it and don’t see it everyday. It takes a visitor to point out that all the dark skin sisters and brothers are in the service industry."

Maybe that's it. I don't know anything about Puerto Rico because I'm a visitor.

cont.


"Black Latinos are not respected in Latin America and we will have to get it by defending our rights, much like African Americans struggled in the U.S."


cont.

"This is not about rejecting whiteness rather; it’s about learning to love our blackness - to love ourselves. We have to say basta ya, it’s enough, and find a way to love our blackness. They have confused us - and taught us to hate each other - to self-hate and create divisions on shades and features.

Remember that during slavery, they took the light blacks to work the home, and left the dark ones to work the fields. There is a lot residue of self-hatred. And each of us has to put a grain in the sand to make it into a movement where we get respect, where we can celebrate our blackness without shame. It will be difficult but not impossible."

Food for thought.....................
 
Old 08-20-2009, 03:29 PM
 
60,434 posts, read 85,521,430 times
Reputation: 13267
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncc View Post
This happened in Haiti and look what happened, the weathly French landowners were overthrown by the slaves.
and isn't it ironic that Haiti has had to pay the price for fighting for it's independence from a slave based society, but other coutries fighting for their independence haven't?
 
Old 08-20-2009, 03:39 PM
 
60,434 posts, read 85,521,430 times
Reputation: 13267
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad View Post
Tego Calderon: Black Pride


"I remember, too, when Celia Cruz died, a newscaster, thinking she was being smart, said Celia Cruz wasn’t black, she was Cuban. She was pretty even though she’s black. As if there is something wrong with being black, like the two things can’t exist simultaneously and be a majestic thing. There is ignorance and stupidity in Puerto Rico and Latin America when it comes to blackness."

cont.

"And the thing is that many white Puerto Ricans and Latinos don’t get it. They are immune to the subtle ways in which we are demeaned, disrespected. They have white privilege. And I’ve heard it said that we are on the defensive about race. Those things happen and it’s not because of color, Tego, but because of how you look, how you walk, what you wear, what credit card you have. Then, they spend a couple of days with me, sort of walk in my shoes, and say “Damn negro, you are right.” When I check into hotels and use my American Express they call the credit card company in front of me saying the machine is broken. This happens a lot in U.S. cities but it’s not because there is more racism there, it’s because they don’t know me. When I’m in Latin America, I am known, so it’s different. That is not to say that there is less racism. The reality for blacks in Latin America is severe, in Colombia, Venezuela, Peru, Honduras.....Puerto Rican (and Latin American) blacks are confused because we grow up side by side with non-blacks and we are lulled into believing that things are the same. But we are treated differently."


cont.

"Young black Latinos have to learn their story. We also need to start our own media, and forums and universities. We are treated like second class citizens. They tell blacks in Latin America that we are better off than U.S. blacks or Africans and that we have it better here, but it’s a false sense of being. Because here, it’s worse."

Sounds pretty doggone familiar. But I guess Tego doesn't know anything about Puerto Rico or black Puerto Ricans.

cont.

"They have raised us to be ashamed of our blackness. It’s in the language too. Take the word denigrate - denigrar - which is to be less than a negro. In Puerto Rico you get used it and don’t see it everyday. It takes a visitor to point out that all the dark skin sisters and brothers are in the service industry."

Maybe that's it. I don't know anything about Puerto Rico because I'm a visitor.

cont.


"Black Latinos are not respected in Latin America and we will have to get it by defending our rights, much like African Americans struggled in the U.S."


cont.

"This is not about rejecting whiteness rather; it’s about learning to love our blackness - to love ourselves. We have to say basta ya, it’s enough, and find a way to love our blackness. They have confused us - and taught us to hate each other - to self-hate and create divisions on shades and features.

Remember that during slavery, they took the light blacks to work the home, and left the dark ones to work the fields. There is a lot residue of self-hatred. And each of us has to put a grain in the sand to make it into a movement where we get respect, where we can celebrate our blackness without shame. It will be difficult but not impossible."

Food for thought.....................
I'm glad you brought this up, because the same thing is the case in places all over Latin America, whether it is Brazil, Colombia, Equador, Mexico, Cuba, Venezuela, Panama, the Dominican Republic and so on. So, it's a myth that this is just an American thing, because people get things twisted due to the integration and mixture of the people in many Latin American countries. There still is a hierarchy issue in terms of race in these countries and many Americans and even people in said countries don't see it.

Here's an interesting article about Black people in Bolivia: Black Latin Americans dream Obama will mean better times | McClatchy

and an interesting series from the Miami Herald: MiamiHerald.com | Afro-Latin Americans
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