Statehood is for the poor. (credit, loan, how much)

[Hellion1999]

Originally Posted by Norwood Boy

In all honesty, Why would The U.S. want PR? They no longer have the armed service in Vieques. Why would the govt. want to be saddled with so much debt?

In all honesty, maybe you should go back to high school and take American Civics again. Puerto Rico ALREADY belongs to the United States of America and Puerto Ricans have FULL U.S. citizenship and the U.S. Constitution applies to Puerto Rico. (except those rights the constitution gives exclusively to the states)

For you to ask: "Why would The U.S. want PR?" is kinda silly since the U.S. already has P.R. for over a century. Maybe you didn't get the memo.



if "debt" was ever an issue in the U.S. for who stays and goes, then millions of U.S. CITIZENS would be deported and cities closed starting with the former black slaves after the civil war which all of them were poor and uneducated and every citizen who has ever filed for bankruptcy. Detroit and every U.S. city who has a debt would close and cease to exist and their residents stripped of the U.S. citizenship and deported.

[WIHS2006]

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

In all honesty, maybe you should go back to high school and take American Civics again. Puerto Rico ALREADY belongs to the United States of America and Puerto Ricans have FULL U.S. citizenship and the U.S. Constitution applies to Puerto Rico. (except those rights the constitution gives exclusively to the states)

For you to ask: "Why would The U.S. want PR?" is kinda silly since the U.S. already has P.R. for over a century. Maybe you didn't get the memo.



if "debt" was ever an issue in the U.S. for who stays and goes, then millions of U.S. CITIZENS would be deported and cities closed starting with the former black slaves after the civil war which all of them were poor and uneducated and every citizen who has ever filed for bankruptcy. Detroit and every U.S. city who has a debt would close and cease to exist and their residents stripped of the U.S. citizenship and deported.


That's how silly and elitist (maybe racist) your argument is.

Well said

And that's not to mention the incredibly sticky issue of how the United States can de-annex a land populated by 3.6 million of it's own people. Remember, neither the Philippines nor the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands had US citizenship.

The United States annexed Puerto Rico in 1900 under the Foraker Act ... we already "have" Puerto Rico.

All Puerto Rican debates must recognize the reality that a permanent union exists between the island and the mainland and the separatism is not an option.

[Hellion1999]

Originally Posted by sunpup

Mr Clip continues to play the " us vs" them nonsense. I am as much Puerto Rican as he is, as I LIVE here! I am also never an apologist for anyone or any nation. I simply am pragmatic and not blind (as he seems to be) when it comes to PR. He loves to call other names who do not agree with him. I am not so contentious and hateful.
Any group of people who live and move about into various locations are not about to confine themselves to one island. They are mixed throughout USA as any other group.
Another fear he tries to scare people with is the citizenship thing. Regardless of how citizenship is acquired, it cannot be reversed. This is fearmongering. The courts have ruled time and again that rights conferred cannot be removed by any type of legislation. Of course, this will never happen. What does he really want? Another set of "homegrown" politicians to rule him? All political types are much the same, so he will get nothing better.
Trying to use Israel as an example betrays his ignorance. The rich little state of Israel gets more US money (about or beyond $35K per citizen). This is more than any part of USA.
Like it or not the USA connection with PR as a state or.a territory will remain because there is ni viable alternative to maintain the lifestyle we all need.
So, Mr Clip, call me some more nasty names. This fact alone attests to your nasty hatred. Sorry for you!

isn't that the only card the anti-americans independence movement in Puerto Rico have to play, fear mongering? they have been playing that card for decades.


I blame the Puerto Rican public school system which Puerto Ricans themselves control including "independentistas" teachers which the system is flooded with that don't teach American Civics in the classrooms and ignorance and false information are easily spread.

[csmi]

I think Norwood boy meant to say, why SHOULD the US want PR with their predominant and excessive culture of welfare. This is not sustainable in the long term.

Mr. Clip correctly stated that countries, states, areas can become self-sufficient. A culture of dependency is counter-productive, however, and is a barrier to self-sufficiency.

[Hellion1999]

Originally Posted by csmi

I think Norwood boy meant to say, why SHOULD the US want PR with their predominant and excessive culture of welfare. This is not sustainable in the long term.

Mr. Clip correctly stated that countries, states, areas can become self-sufficient. A culture of dependency is counter-productive, however, and is a barrier to self-sufficiency.

1) again,the U.S.A already owns P.R. for over a century, is not a question of "wanting". Maybe you didn't get the memo either. The U.S. is NOT in the business of giving real estate away especially with 4 million U.S. Citizens in it and many Puerto Rican Veterans who have fought and died in every U.S. WAR and conflict since WW 1.


2) What does "welfare" and low income citizens has to do with being accepted with rights in the U.S? You lost me with that argument. You are saying the millions of U.S. citizens in the U.S.A who are low income or on welfare somehow shouldn't be part of the U.S.A or given full rights under the U.S. system because they are poor? you should also take a high school course in American Civics.


3) If you have a problem with the welfare system of today then take it up with congress, they make the rules and sign the checks but that's another topic and politics. People will always take what the government is willing to give them.


4) Trust me, if we deport or reject every U.S. citizen because they are low income or on welfare, you would have a long line from New York to Hawaii.

5) and to educate you in U.S. History, if WELFARE of today was available after the U.S.A got their independence from the British, over 70% in the nation would have been on welfare since the U.S. was broke and in debt after the Revolution War and by today's standards the majority in the nation at the time would have qualified for every federal and state program from food stamps, WIK, Housing and Pell Grants. The South was broke after the American CIVIL WAR and their economy destroyed and the majority in the south would have been on welfare since they were broke after losing the war especially the former slaves and most of the 37 territories that are states today had a higher poverty rate than Puerto Rico of today as a territories but nowhere in the history books shows the U.S. rejecting or "NOT WANTING" U.S. citizens because they were poor or on welfare.



6) You don't reject or violate a U.S. Citizen's rights because they are low income or on welfare.

[sunpup]

Mr. Hellion does an excellent job of refuting those individuals who never seem to understand that Puerto Rico is an INTEGRAL part of USA populated with individuals who are native-born US citizens, no more no less than any in the contiguous 48. As such any argument about citizenship or nonsense about the US government "not wanting" PR is totally absurd.
The tiny fraction of independence seekers (about 3%, similar or less than many states) seem ti have an emotional attachment to a past they never experienced. The true value of any government is if it can provide the less fortunate in society with a reasonable life. Thus the federal government does reasonably well. To complain that such benefits hurt economic aggression in individuals is something that is the usual complaint of a person who does nit need help.
In our part of the world regions that have political associations with wealthier and larger nations are much better off in all ways important to living well than independent islands with.no one to help them. Never will our island culture suffer or drastically change with the US association, as it is too deeply rooted. In modern times a polyglot nation like the US will never return to attempting to force a totally unified society. It does not work to do so, and it is counterproductive. I have lived in PR for 12 years, and never personally met anyone who wished to leave the USA. That sort of thing is debated more on Internet forums than in the reality of life. The debate is between Commonwealth and statehood, not going it alone.

[Hellion1999]

what do you call people that use the argument that a group of people in a nation that are fully U.S. citizens that they don't belong or shouldn't be part of the nation with full rights because they are low income or on welfare?



if a white supremacist uses that argument against any minority we all know what everybody would call him and crucify that person in public but the funny thing about it is some Puerto Ricans uses that argument all the time and is acceptable. Go figure!


I'm not attacking anybody since I don't know what is in their hearts and souls, I'm just criticizing their argument and calling it for what it is. No double standards from me.

[charlie319]

Originally Posted by clip314

Many years ago then governor Carlos Romero Barcelo wrote a column saying that the ones who will benefit the most from Puerto Rico becoming a state are the poor. Little did he know then that his prediction has become a reality.

60% of the population are on some form of handout from the Federal Government. The island has the smallest % of worker participation than any U.S. Territory. It makes better sense to collect welfare and do menial jobs off the books and sleep + make babies all day if one wants to. The more kids, the more money.

To put the frosting on the cake, developers have begun to rent their unsold luxury apartments to welfare recipients under section 8. The Metropolis, a luxury condo that has stood unsold in San Juan's uppity financial district, la Milla De Oro, has been given over to folks from the housing projects. The Metropolis has a pool, exercise rooms, two parking spots for each resident, fantastic views from it upper floors, marble lobby, and huge terraces to party. No this is not a joke! It's not that the poor don't deserve to live well, but the hard working middle classes see this and figure out that it's better to emigrate than to tolerate this nonsense. Statehood is indeed for the poor, and you can see it in the numbers voting for it. Like they say in my home town, Is Candy bitter? Americans should investigate what's going on in its colony and put a stop to it or forever be stuck with Paying the bill for a state like no other.

Statehood, is for the poor who desire to raise themselves above their childhood friends. Welfare is, or should have been, a tool to alleviate economic pressures that keep the poor from raising their standard of living through education and employment with long term advantages. If spend your days engaged in tactics geared towards making ends meet, you have little space or time for strategic actions that may improve your lot long term. The reason that there is so much welfare in the island is easy. Once the statehooders began growing in numbers, the PPD began a welfare race to buy votes which the PNP also engaged in. However, if we look at US populations of "Boricuas" we can see that there is higher employment numbers in populations in Orlando, for example. In PR the problem is not so much welfare, but the lack of well paying jobs relative to the size of the population. When you have a (relatively) well educated class who figures that they have more economic stability going on the dole and working off the books than engaging in traditional employment, you get a group of people able to game the system. Under Statehood, where things are dramatically different, Puertorricans do work.

As to the usage of section 8 funds for apartment rental, that is more a function of the island being over-built and the owners needing to recoup some of their investment. Americans are not going to disinvest themselves from an island that is the key to the eastern approaches of the Panama Canal, particularly when the Canal is run by a Chinese company and the same Chinese government industrial aparatus is looking to build another and larger transitsmic canal in Nicaragua.

Puerto Rico is strategically, politically and militarily valuable. Get used to the idea of the Stars & Stripes waving over the island for the foreseeable future.

[Norwood Boy]

Originally Posted by Hellion1999

In all honesty, maybe you should go back to high school and take American Civics again. Puerto Rico ALREADY belongs to the United States of America and Puerto Ricans have FULL U.S. citizenship and the U.S. Constitution applies to Puerto Rico. (except those rights the constitution gives exclusively to the states)

For you to ask: "Why would The U.S. want PR?" is kinda silly since the U.S. already has P.R. for over a century. Maybe you didn't get the memo.



if "debt" was ever an issue in the U.S. for who stays and goes, then millions of U.S. CITIZENS would be deported and cities closed starting with the former black slaves after the civil war which all of them were poor and uneducated and every citizen who has ever filed for bankruptcy. Detroit and every U.S. city who has a debt would close and cease to exist and their residents stripped of the U.S. citizenship and deported.

Take it easy man. No need to get heated over this. Does the US want PR as a STATE? I would say NO. The country is mired in huge debt. There is a huge list of creditors who want to get paid. The electric problems are a whole other topic. Actually a good point of discussion would be for the U.S. to cut PR totally loose.

[WIHS2006]

Originally Posted by charlie319

Statehood, is for the poor who desire to raise themselves above their childhood friends. Welfare is, or should have been, a tool to alleviate economic pressures that keep the poor from raising their standard of living through education and employment with long term advantages. If spend your days engaged in tactics geared towards making ends meet, you have little space or time for strategic actions that may improve your lot long term. The reason that there is so much welfare in the island is easy. Once the statehooders began growing in numbers, the PPD began a welfare race to buy votes which the PNP also engaged in. However, if we look at US populations of "Boricuas" we can see that there is higher employment numbers in populations in Orlando, for example. In PR the problem is not so much welfare, but the lack of well paying jobs relative to the size of the population. When you have a (relatively) well educated class who figures that they have more economic stability going on the dole and working off the books than engaging in traditional employment, you get a group of people able to game the system. Under Statehood, where things are dramatically different, Puertorricans do work.

As to the usage of section 8 funds for apartment rental, that is more a function of the island being over-built and the owners needing to recoup some of their investment. Americans are not going to disinvest themselves from an island that is the key to the eastern approaches of the Panama Canal, particularly when the Canal is run by a Chinese company and the same Chinese government industrial aparatus is looking to build another and larger transitsmic canal in Nicaragua.

Puerto Rico is strategically, politically and militarily valuable. Get used to the idea of the Stars & Stripes waving over the island for the foreseeable future.

Excellent post

I think we as a nation have learned from our mistake regarding the Panama Canal Zone. We're not going to make that mistake again. We are certainly not going to hand Puerto Rico over to the likes of Ruben Berrios, Carmen Yulin, and Melissa Mark-Viverito ... pawns of Cuba and Venezuela. That would be a colossal mistake. It is in our national interests to keep Puerto Rico under US sovereignty - and as such it might as well be a state of the Union on equal footing with the other states of our nation; equal rights and equal responsibilities.

Pro-statehood allies Congressman Don Young (R-AK) and Congresswoman Illiana Ros Leheten (R-FL) met last week with representatives from the PNP to plan a course of action regarding the upcoming binding status referendum that Congress approved as part of FY2014 Federal Budget. Some Republicans in the Senate (Marco Rubio) want to settle the matter by first having a union vs separation referendum, and then a runoff between statehood and the "commonwealth" expressly defined as being subject to the Territorial Clause and the Plenary Powers of Congress.