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Old 04-14-2019, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,107 posts, read 15,366,251 times
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Siding with the interests of the american workers isnt aiding with the Jones act and foreign dredge act which is why your position is irrational. The end result is higher prices and less shipping, period. There is no valid counterargument, the data supports its complete failure. While it makes for great populism to attack "globalists," the reality is that far fewer Jobs are in shipping than would otherwise be without the over protected domestic shipping market..which just happens to drive up prices for states and territories outside the continental states the most because they cannot substitute into trucking and railroads.
Perhaps there are other systems that provide a better balance than ours but it all starts. with the admission that the Jones act and foreign dredge act have failed to do anything they were intended to do and have significant unintended consequences.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Philly
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I'd add that one of the great ironies os that the hyper protectionism in shipping has the opposite affect of protecting us workers not just in shipping but because it makes it relatively less expensive to receive foreign goods than domestic goods. It is cheaper to ship from across the ocean on a foreign vessel than locally along the us coast. It is cheaper (and possible) to important foreign natural gas than ship it from Philadelphia
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:13 PM
 
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The operation of the Jones Act fleet leads to economic activity in a variety of sectors of the economy. Jones Act vessels are built in U.S. shipyards and ship owners are required to undertake periodic inspection, monitoring and maintenance (“drydocking”). Jones Act operations require loading and unloading of cargo at ports, warehousing of products prior to shipping, and ground transportation to position the cargo. These activities require coordination and oversight. For most Jones Act operators, the number of shore staff exceeds the crew on ships. The economic contribution of the Jones Act extends beyond ship operations. Shipbuilders purchase steel and other products from domestic companies to build ships. In turn, those companies purchase other products. At each level of production, wages are paid to employees who spend that money, generating additional economic impacts.


An estimated 74,000 jobs were directly attributable to the Jones Act fleet and provided U.S. citizens with employment. These jobs include the crewing of vessels, the building, maintenance, and repair of those vessels, and the shore-side management and support of trade. Another 425,889 jobs arise from indirect and induced employment. The indirect impact measures the economic activity in other U.S. industries that sell goods and services to Jones Act businesses. The induced impact measures the economic effect of goods and services purchased out of payrolls arising from the direct and indirect impacts of the Jones Act fleet. The combination of these effects comprises the overall contribution of the Jones Act fleet to the U.S. economy.


In 2011 dollars, the indirect and induced jobs account for $33.6 billion in U.S. value-added (i.e. Gross Domestic Product) and $21.7 billion in labor compensation. Overall, the Jones Act fleet is responsible for nearly half a million U.S. jobs and generates $45.7 billion in value added, $28.9 billion in labor compensation, and $9.9 billion in taxes to federal, state, and local governments.




https://transportationinstitute.org/...-0456d2e5-1a3a
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Old 04-14-2019, 12:20 PM
 
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PricewaterhouseCoopers – Contribution of the Jones Act Shipping Industry to the US Economy (2014 Study):
Jobs (direct and indirect): 475,000
Labor Income: $29 Billion
Value Added: $46 Billion
Output: $92 Billion
Tax Impact: $10 Billion


https://www.maritime-executive.com/e...nancial-impact


Those are Americans jobs that pay taxes. You haven't answer my question. If they get rid of the Jones Act and let foreign ships and foreign workers control our domestic routes and interstate commerce will that create more American jobs and higher wages or the opposite?


You know the answer to that. The U.S. will never get rid of the Jones Act.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Philly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
PricewaterhouseCoopers – Contribution of the Jones Act Shipping Industry to the US Economy (2014 Study):
Jobs (direct and indirect): 475,000
Labor Income: $29 Billion
Value Added: $46 Billion
Output: $92 Billion
Tax Impact: $10 Billion


https://www.maritime-executive.com/e...nancial-impact


Those are Americans jobs that pay taxes. You haven't answer my question. If they get rid of the Jones Act and let foreign ships and foreign workers control our domestic routes and interstate commerce will that create more American jobs and higher wages or the opposite?


You know the answer to that. The U.S. will never get rid of the Jones Act.
how was the contribution calculated? is that the contribution of the jones act over a non-jones act shipping industry or just the state of the industry mislabeled as the jones act contribution? I suspect the former.
Quote:
The small number of beneficiaries, which primarily include domestic shipyards and some labor unions, are more powerfully motivated to preserve the status quo than are the far more numerous adversely affected interests in seeking its repeal.
what is the jones act?
Quote:
Today, those provisions require that such ships be at least 75 percent U.S.-owned, at least 75 percent U.S.-crewed, and assembled entirely in the United States with all “major components of the hull and superstructure” fabricated domestically.
as you can see from the image below, the US laws have more in common with China and russian than the netherlands and germany.


how it all falls apart
Quote:
One of the main causes of that decline is the onerous domestic-build requirement of the Jones Act, which prohibits U.S. shippers from operating vessels constructed abroad. American-built coastal and feeder ships cost between $190 and $250 million, whereas the cost to build a similar vessel in a foreign shipyard is about $30 million.23 Accordingly, U.S. shippers buy fewer ships, U.S. shipyards build fewer ships, and merchant mariners have fewer employment opportunities to serve as crew on those nonexistent ships.
perhaps worse, the shipyards that produce these ships are also heavily subsidized.

Quote:
...To get a sense of the inefficiencies, a Maritime Administration report found that the operating costs of U.S.-flagged vessels engaged in foreign commerce in 2010 were 2.7 times greater than those of their foreign competitors.61 The daily operating costs, which include crew, tools, supplies, maintenance and repair, insurance, and overhead were tallied at $7,454 for foreign-flagged vessels, but a whopping $20,053 for U.S.-flagged vessels. Of the U.S. total, 68 percent ($13,655) was crew costs, as compared to 35 percent for foreign-flagged ships. It should be no surprise that labor unions are among the Jones Act’s most vigorous supporters.62 Maintenance and repair costs, meanwhile, are inflated by a provision in the Tariff Act of 1922 — supported by Senator Jones — mandating that repairs made in foreign ports be subject to a 50 percent ad valorem tax.63 Moreover, any rebuilding of a ship abroad — defined as the addition of more than 7.5 percent of the vessel’s steelweight to the hull and superstructure, or adding a major component weighing more than 1.5 percent of the vessel’s steelweight — will cause the vessel to lose its Jones Act eligibility../
https://www.cato.org/publications/po...no-longer-bear

if there were complete removal of protectionism, the amount of wages in shipping would increase dramatically but the per head wages would decrease. costs to ship would drop, benefiting domestic producers in coastal areas, and reducing the cost of imported goods from the US mainland for states and territories outside the continental US. It is likely shippers would still have to comply with regulations...more likely, the jones act would simply be replaced by a more functional/less detrimental protectionist legislation.

the reality is there is no benefit to the jones act and the contribution calculation is imaginary.
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Old 04-16-2019, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Philly
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Quote:
“Despite the protectionist grip of the law on coastal commerce, the US shipbuilding industry and coastal shipping continue to sink,” he writes. “From 1983 to 2013, more than 300 US shipyards shut down. The number of oceangoing Jones Act-qualified ships of more than 1,000 tons has shrunk by more than half since 2000. Even as the US economy has more than quadrupled since 1960, the amount of freight carried by US coastal commerce has fallen by almost half.”
https://www.ship-technology.com/feat...merican-ports/
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:11 AM
 
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you still ignoring my question. If they get rid of the Jones Act and let foreign ships with foreign workers control our domestic routes and interstate commerce will that create more American Jobs and better wages or the opposite?

Would the Steel and Iron industries in the U.S. who employed many Americans with good paying jobs be affected?........you know the answer to that. You are not taking a lot of things into consideration.

Last edited by Hellion1999; 04-16-2019 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,107 posts, read 15,366,251 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
you still ignoring my question. If they get rid of the Jones Act and let foreign ships with foreign workers control our domestic routes and interstate commerce will that create more American Jobs and better wages or the opposite?

Would the Steel and Iron industries in the U.S. who employed many Americans with good paying jobs be affected?........you know the answer to that. You are not taking a lot of things into consideration.
I answered your question. The reality is you are not taking things Into consideration. The us does not produce enough ships to materially affect the steel and iron industries.
What you are admitting is if one person gets paid less that outweighs thousands more having jobs. That, my friend, is not taking things into consideration.
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:09 PM
 
11,048 posts, read 4,568,757 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
I answered your question. The reality is you are not taking things Into consideration. The us does not produce enough ships to materially affect the steel and iron industries.
What you are admitting is if one person gets paid less that outweighs thousands more having jobs. That, my friend, is not taking things into consideration.

The U.S. has the biggest Navy in the world. China comes second (our main economic competition). That's when the U.S. is the world 3rd largest steel producer in the world and 6th in Iron.



You should visit the U.S. Naval Shipyards in Puget Sound in Bremerton, Washington. The Portland, Oregon shipyard and the ones in Virginia to start, as I have.



About 142,000 Americans work in the U.S Steel industry and 6.5 million workers in steel-consuming manufacturers.


The Jones Act doesn't just ship, it covers commercial fishing, tugs, barges, ferries, and other commercial boats. None of them would be built here. Their captains and crews would be the cheapest foreign labor available. And shipowners backing the repeal of the Jones Act would soon realize the foreign owners would soon out cheapskate them, taking away all the shipping.
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:13 PM
 
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The Jones Act isn’t just about deep sea shipping. That ship has sailed. Everyone should honestly consider how much cheaper it would be to build tugs and barges in China and bring them here. Within a few years China could train enough tug operators and build enough boats to replace those currently operating in the rivers and harbors of the US. American farm goods will be cheaper and we can sell more. Heck, harbor tugs should be cheaper, too. I know it will make offshore oil exploration cheaper and it should help bring down the cost of houses with all the seamen out of work.


Getting rid of the Jones Act will open up a lot of new jobs, in China.
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