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Old 04-19-2019, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,105 posts, read 15,280,963 times
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Philadelphias ship yard has begun its once a decade going out of business campaign. So far it has received at least a billion in state money and should not receive any more since it is not the states job to ensure shipbuilding capacity in the event of war. Once it goes the us will lose half its Jones act capacity which I guess is fine since the jones act has decimated the shipping industry
Quote:
The yard has delivered more than half of all Jones Act oceangoing vessels since 2003, including container ships, product tankers and crude oil tankers. But those ships cost four times more than vessels built by foreign competitors, while U.S. owners must shoulder higher insurance premiums and heftier salaries for U.S. sailors compared with operators that use foreign crews.
Philadelphia Shipyard Fights Again for Its Life https://www.wsj.com/articles/philade...fe-11555520301
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Old 04-19-2019, 09:01 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,105 posts, read 15,280,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
The Jones Act isn’t just about deep sea shipping. That ship has sailed. Everyone should honestly consider how much cheaper it would be to build tugs and barges in China and bring them here. Within a few years China could train enough tug operators and build enough boats to replace those currently operating in the rivers and harbors of the US. American farm goods will be cheaper and we can sell more. Heck, harbor tugs should be cheaper, too. I know it will make offshore oil exploration cheaper and it should help bring down the cost of houses with all the seamen out of work.


Getting rid of the Jones Act will open up a lot of new jobs, in China.
Actually this is mostly about deep sea shipping. Tugs is just the only thing left that Americans buy. Everything shipped between us ports would be cheaper whether its farm goods or natural gas equipment. The us shipbuilding industry is largely irrelevant and so removal of the Jones act wont affect the world shipbuilding market in any material way.

The first step to progress is admitting theres a problem and the data all confirms that there is. The cheapest and most straightforward solution is obviously removal of the Jones and foreign dredge acts which would result in an increase in domestic shipping (and for the non continental places a dramatic decrease in the cost of shipping to and from the us). If you really believe we need shipbuilding for defense, then a federal shipbuilding subsidy/tax advantage is likely required to overcome the massive cost disadvantage of building domestically
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Old 04-20-2019, 04:09 PM
 
11,048 posts, read 4,530,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
Actually this is mostly about deep sea shipping. Tugs is just the only thing left that Americans buy. Everything shipped between us ports would be cheaper whether its farm goods or natural gas equipment. The us shipbuilding industry is largely irrelevant and so removal of the Jones act wont affect the world shipbuilding market in any material way.

The first step to progress is admitting theres a problem and the data all confirms that there is. The cheapest and most straightforward solution is obviously removal of the Jones and foreign dredge acts which would result in an increase in domestic shipping (and for the non continental places a dramatic decrease in the cost of shipping to and from the us). If you really believe we need shipbuilding for defense, then a federal shipbuilding subsidy/tax advantage is likely required to overcome the massive cost disadvantage of building domestically

91 countries representing 80% of the world's coastlines of United Nations maritime states have cabotage laws restricting foreign maritime activity in their domestic coastal trades. UN member states with cabotage include China, South Korea, Russia, Japan, Chile, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Australia, and Canada.



So you want for the US to open our domestic routes to China that will create many Chinese jobs at the expense of American jobs but China doesn't have to open theirs? how is that free trade?



https://www.joc.com/regulation-polic..._20170216.html




so before you keep arguing until your last breath on earth to get rid of the Jones Act only for the U.S. at the expense of the American workers and economy, you better get the same deal from our trading partners and enforce it for every country. Like they say in Puerto Rico: "Lo que es igual no es ventaja"
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Old 04-21-2019, 04:07 PM
 
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The Jones Act repeal would also crush American airline pilot wages.
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Old 04-21-2019, 11:53 PM
 
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https://www.americanmaritimepartners...abotage-study/


Good read on World Cabotage study.
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Old 04-22-2019, 06:19 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,105 posts, read 15,280,963 times
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"
Quote:
Seaborne LNG cargo markets also are being fueled by growing U.S. gas exports, as extraction costs in the U.S. are about a third less on average than those in other production centers including Russia and the Middle East.
Ship Orders Fall to Lowest Level in 15 Years https://www.wsj.com/articles/ship-or...rs-11555686292
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:22 AM
 
11,048 posts, read 4,530,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
"
Ship Orders Fall to Lowest Level in 15 Years https://www.wsj.com/articles/ship-or...rs-11555686292

what does the article has to do with the world's cabotage laws?
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Old 04-22-2019, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,105 posts, read 15,280,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
what does the article has to do with the world's cabotage laws?
due to US cabotage laws Puerto Rico is unable to import LNG from the US, unlike foreign countries despite the fact US LNG is cheaper.

I'm making my way through your article, I did find it interesting that our laws are more similar to Japan than to the UK which has no cabotage laws. Japan, not coincidentally, has found it necessary to heavily subsidize their shipbuilding industry. also interestingly that UK cabotage laws, which were repealed in 1848, are considered a contributing factor to the US war for independence.
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Old 04-22-2019, 08:15 AM
 
11,048 posts, read 4,530,747 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
due to US cabotage laws Puerto Rico is unable to import LNG from the US, unlike foreign countries despite the fact US LNG is cheaper.

there is more to that and it has to do with Puerto Rican politics.




Quote:
For now, the cargoes of LNG for power generation, if they flow, will likely emanate from Trinidad which has supplied southwest Puerto Rico under a 20-year contract inked back in the late 1990s glory days of Enron Corp.
Capacity at the present facility at Guayanilla will be expanded, after gaining recent regulatory approvals. An Excelerate Energy project to import LNG into southeastern Puerto Rico was recently scrapped in the wake of continuing financial problems at the island’s utility.
Meantime, Jones Act stalwart Crowley has a growing business of exporting LNG from its Jacksonville hub, in tank containers, to pharmaceutical users in Puerto Rico, through San Juan.

Perfect storm: Jones Act, LNG terminals and renewable energy
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Old 04-22-2019, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,105 posts, read 15,280,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
there is more to that and it has to do with Puerto Rican politics.

Perfect storm: Jones Act, LNG terminals and renewable energy
as far as I can tell it is not about Puerto Rican politics. a permanent exemption would work well here.


I found this interesting and unexpected
Quote:
Despite these concerns, the Trump Administration’s Department of Energy has eased the way for LNG export companies to ship gas to Puerto Rico and the Caribbean at large by classifying tankers as “small scale,” as reported by The Real News...“[T]here are about 30-40 LNG carriers around the world that could be used to ship LNG from the U.S. to Puerto Rico under a limited exception, but these ships would still need to be U.S. registered and U.S. crewed,” Susan Sakmar, a law professor at University of Houston and former accountant for Chevron, told The Real News, pointing to a 2015 U.S. Government Accountability Office report. “This has not happened yet, probably because the market is so small that there’s no real economic incentive to do this. The LNG shipping industry has for the most part been developed outside of the U.S., which has never been a major player in LNG until shale gas came along giving rise to US LNG exports.”
https://www.nationofchange.org/2019/...h-fracked-gas/

perhaps even more shockingly, PR isn't alone in having the LNG market affected by the jones act
Quote:
Even though LNG is produced fairly cheaply in the United States, the New England region has to get its shipments from Trinidad and Tobago because of a 1920 federal law called the Jones Act that prohibits the transportation of any cargo between U.S. ports unless the ship was built in the country and is owned by U.S. citizens."The issue is magnified with regards to natural gas because the U.S. has cheap and plentiful natural gas, but no Jones Act-qualified carriers. Accordingly, Massachusetts imports LNG from Trinidad and Tobago...
Read more: http://www.sentinelandenterprise.com...#ixzz5lqQHa1JK
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