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View Poll Results: Should Puerto Rico become a state or an independent nation?
State 54 41.86%
Independent nation 64 49.61%
Other (please specify in your post) 11 8.53%
Voters: 129. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-19-2020, 06:03 AM
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
22,274 posts, read 10,456,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
I read the Supreme Court Case, you should read it again. If you are a foreigner and falsify your immigration papers that is AN ACTION, you lied on your application. It's voided. If you are a foreigner which the government might grant you legal status based on your military service and you get a dishonorable discharge (convicted in a military court for a felony crime, the worst conviction in the military court ) that is an ACTION from your part that voided the agreement with the U.S government. Foreigners are not protected under the constitution.

None of what you mention applies to Puerto Rico because Puerto Rico is not a foreign nation and the people are not under the military jurisdiction. What matters to Puerto Rico is that Congress can't take away their citizenship involuntarily or because they voted in a foreign election or because they live in a foreign land and it was declared by the U.S. Supreme Court.
And neither of those are the sort of affirmative at the time rejections that your interpretation of the Supreme Court opinion would require. Note, the case you cite to also involves AN ACTION (namely voting in a foreign election which was then illegal and that the person had notice was illegal) that the petitioner took, so your analogy there doesn't even work. You clearly do not understand the opinion and how this situation is not analogous to that case.

Based on your reading of that case, Congress could theoretically pass legislation granting US citizenship to every person on Earth and not be able to take it away involuntarily via another piece of legislation. That's ridiculous and the decision stands for nothing of the sort. Again, you do not understand what the opinion actually stands for.
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Old 09-19-2020, 10:49 AM
 
772 posts, read 170,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
And neither of those are the sort of affirmative at the time rejections that your interpretation of the Supreme Court opinion would require. Note, the case you cite to also involves AN ACTION (namely voting in a foreign election which was then illegal and that the person had notice was illegal) that the petitioner took, so your analogy there doesn't even work. You clearly do not understand the opinion and how this situation is not analogous to that case.

Based on your reading of that case, Congress could theoretically pass legislation granting US citizenship to every person on Earth and not be able to take it away involuntarily via another piece of legislation. That's ridiculous and the decision stands for nothing of the sort. Again, you do not understand what the opinion actually stands for.

and you do? The Supreme Court decision is clear. Once you have CITIZENSHIP, Congress can't take it involuntarily. This has a clear contradiction to your wrongly opinion that you keep arguing because you are stubborn and you can't admit you were wrong and bring isolated cases of foreigners losing their citizenship which has nothing to do with Puerto Rico.

Tell you what? since you want to keep arguing your losing opinion. Since the Supreme Court decision, name me 1 U.S. Citizen that lost his citizenship involuntarily. Name 1 and don't bring me isolated cases of foreigners lying on their government application and lied under oath to get citizenship or foreigners getting a dishonorable discharge in the military and violating their agreement with the U.S. government of getting special status on their application. I'm talking about U.S. CITIZENS! Name 1 case.....I will wait........


and to get it out the way since you have a hard time with definitions of a few words on this topic, the definition of involuntarily: One contrary to or without choice. Not subject to control of the will.
and the definition of action: the fact or process of doing something, typically to achieve an aim.
a thing done; an act. The Supreme Court has the same dictionary, has the same definitions, and speak the same language.

Let me know when you find the case after the Supreme Court Decision in 1967. Find me one.

Last edited by SanJuanStar; 09-19-2020 at 10:59 AM..
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Old 09-19-2020, 11:17 AM
 
772 posts, read 170,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deb100 View Post
For immigration purposes Puerto Rico is declared to be part of the United States by federal statute (along with the U. S. Virgin Islands and Guam). Its natives are natural born U. S. citizens and if Puerto Rico becomes an independent country they could not be stripped of their U. S. citizenship without their consent.
Thank you. I have been trying to say this for many posts and I can't believe some here challenge fact and constitutional law. Once you have citizenship, the government can't take it without your consent. The Supreme Court is CLEAR. There are 2 kinds of citizenship given by the powers of Congress by an ACT (that's how they declare new CITIZENSHIP, ACTS). Both are protected by the U.S. Constitution and can't be taken involuntarily.

If Puerto Rico declares their independence and the U.S. accepts it (keyword) then each individual resident in Puerto Rico that doesn't want to be under the American jurisdiction has to renounce their American Citizenship by signing legal papers under oath and informing the State Department. The State Department can't look at your vote in a referendum to see how you voted and act according to your vote. That's illegal and worthless. The government of Puerto Rico also has to do the same thing by passing their own constitution that states that the country is no longer under American jurisdiction. It's a legal process.

Just because you are living in a new declared foreign country or old, that is not legal reason to take away your U.S. Citizenship by law. Americans live all over the world by the millions and the government isn't taking their citizenship against their will because they decide to live there.
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Old 09-19-2020, 11:57 AM
 
772 posts, read 170,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Based on your reading of that case, Congress could theoretically pass legislation granting US citizenship to every person on Earth and not be able to take it away involuntarily via another piece of legislation. That's ridiculous and the decision stands for nothing of the sort. Again, you do not understand what the opinion actually stands for.
I forgot to answer this particular opinion of yours which is bad. Congress doesn't give citizenship to everybody in the world or another nation of people like giving out candy. That's just silly. They ONLY give citizenship to other nation of people that they own and control them and their land and have full jurisdiction. They have to if they are under American jurisdiction. International law is clear.

The U.S. owns the land that I live, I have to obey the U.S. laws and courts but you won't make me your citizen and I have no rights????? see the problem with your opinion and why the U.S. granted Puerto Rico U.S. Citizenship?????? Congress had a choice with Puerto Rico, let them go like they did the Pacific islands after WW 2 which the U.S. NEVER gave them citizenship and had NO intention of making them a U.S. territory or make them a U.S territory and grant them citizenship to all by an ACT which Congress has full powers to do like they did Puerto Rico.

Citizenship means that you are entitled to the rights with responsibilities of the country with FULL protection of the country. You are under the full jurisdiction of the country. You belong to them and no other country. That's why Congress gives out citizenship to other nations they fully control. The U.S. hasn't done so for over 100 years. What you have a hard time understanding is once you have citizenship, the government can't take it against your will by just a law. The Supreme Court is clear on this.
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Old 09-19-2020, 07:04 PM
 
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
6,018 posts, read 4,662,910 times
Reputation: 3811
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
Giving a city statehood is crazy. What's next, giving New York City and Los Angeles and Chicago their own states? They have far more people each than DC. and how much land will the City of DC take from the federal government to form their state. Is not much of a plan. It's an awful plan in every angle from constitutionally, economics and power.
DC has more population in 68 sq miles than 2 states, and will probably pass a 3rd in Alaska this decade. All of those states add up to 6 US Senate seats. DC has 0 seats in the Senate and 1 "non-voting" house seat member. Take a minute to soak that in for a second... There are United States citizens living in mainland America in a jurisdiction the population of 2/3 states that are un-represented in US Congress completely. NYC/LA/Chicago are represented by their larger states in Congress. The federal district is hardly made up of only federal government institutions or workers like it was when it was created. There is an independent local government, that Congress members who live in Virginia and Maryland get to shoot down and tear down local issues that the people who live in the city vote for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
That's what happens when nobody takes American Civics or reads the constitution. DC can't never be a state. The Federal government needs their own land to operate without any conflict of power or sharing power with a state. That's why federal lands in the states are only control by the federals. The states have no say or jurisdiction in those federal lands or property like military bases and forests. The Federal Government will never give up their powers of the land they own and operate in DC to give it to the state when the constitution forbids it.
Please do your research, there is nothing unconstitutional being done here. DC already proposed this to the House earlier this year and it passed. Once the party that controls the Senate changes in Washington, the District will move full speed towards statehood, and Puerto Rico better get on it next.

http://www.dcstatehoodcoalition.org/...he-51st-state/

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/u...ouse-vote.html

This revised District of Columbia would occupy about 5% of today's District of Columbia, but would remain an independent enclave for the federal government as defined in the Constitution. The rest of the District, the place where District residents live their lives beyond their jobs and their daily commutes, would become the 51st State.

Last edited by the resident09; 09-19-2020 at 07:28 PM..
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Old 09-19-2020, 08:14 PM
 
772 posts, read 170,172 times
Reputation: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09 View Post
DC has more population in 68 sq miles than 2 states, and will probably pass a 3rd in Alaska this decade. All of those states add up to 6 US Senate seats. DC has 0 seats in the Senate and 1 "non-voting" house seat member. Take a minute to soak that in for a second... There are United States citizens living in mainland America in a jurisdiction the population of 2/3 states that are un-represented in US Congress completely. NYC/LA/Chicago are represented by their larger states in Congress. The federal district is hardly made up of only federal government institutions or workers like it was when it was created. There is an independent local government, that Congress members who live in Virginia and Maryland get to shoot down and tear down local issues that the people who live in the city vote for.

Please do your research, there is nothing unconstitutional being done here. DC already proposed this to the House earlier this year and it passed. Once the party that controls the Senate changes in Washington, the District will move full speed towards statehood, and Puerto Rico better get on it next.

DC Statehood Coalition - What's the 51st State

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/26/u...ouse-vote.html

This revised District of Columbia would occupy about 5% of today's District of Columbia, but would remain an independent enclave for the federal government as defined in the Constitution. The rest of the District, the place where District residents live their lives beyond their jobs and their daily commutes, would become the 51st State.

I will try to answer your post with facts and not political opinions. It doesn't matter what is their population. D.C. was formed to be a FEDERAL DISTRICT by the demands of our constitution. That's why it was formed, for that purpose ONLY. If you move there you can't complain that is not a state. That's is like me moving to Puerto Rico (a Commonwealth) and complain that is not a state and they don't speak English as a fluent language. Then don't move to Puerto Rico. That is like moving to China and complain about Chinese food and socialism (communism) , then don't move there.

Giving it sovereignty rights as a state will defeat the whole purpose of a Federal District. You will have to amend the constitution which is a lot harder than passing statehood by 1 party in the Senate. This is part of American Civics and why we need a Federal District. Another problem is making DC a state with the whole federal government there will give DC a huge advantage in federal power over the other 50 states because the Federal District will under their nose and all or most of the federal officials passing laws controlling other states will be living in D.C.. They made a federal district so the federal government have full jurisdiction apart from state's sovereignty.

Your last opinion is political. Wishing a 1 party Democrat government. Good luck with that. I don't argue with political opinions but please leave Puerto Rico out of it. You weren't born or lived in Puerto Rico and you don't speak for millions of them and don't understand their culture. You don't even speak Spanish. There is a reason after 122 years of American rule, they want to keep their own identity, keep Spanish as their main language, keep their Olympics and Miss Universe, they don't feel Americans, they take offense if you call don't call them Boricuas or Puerto Ricans and most will take offense if you call them Americans and they only fly their Puerto Rican flag and 73% of the electorate boycotted the last statehood referendum in the island. Democrats are foolish pushing for statehood under the facts for political power in the states and stacking up the decks in Congress because it's a recipe for violence, protests and civil war. Stay with D.C. politics. Like they say in the U.S., Puerto Rico is a different animal (not comparing to an animal) which is complicated and has so many variables that could blow up in the face of the U.S.
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Old 09-19-2020, 09:11 PM
 
Location: That star on your map in the middle of the East Coast, DMV
6,018 posts, read 4,662,910 times
Reputation: 3811
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
I will try to answer your post with facts and not political opinions. It doesn't matter what is their population. D.C. was formed to be a FEDERAL DISTRICT by the demands of our constitution. That's why it was formed, for that purpose ONLY. If you move there you can't complain that is not a state. That's is like me moving to Puerto Rico (a Commonwealth) and complain that is not a state and they don't speak English as a fluent language. Then don't move to Puerto Rico. That is like moving to China and complain about Chinese food and socialism (communism) , then don't move there.

Giving it sovereignty rights as a state will defeat the whole purpose of a Federal District. You will have to amend the constitution which is a lot harder than passing statehood by 1 party in the Senate. This is part of American Civics and why we need a Federal District. Another problem is making DC a state with the whole federal government there will give DC a huge advantage in federal power over the other 50 states because the Federal District will under their nose and all or most of the federal officials passing laws controlling other states will be living in D.C.. They made a federal district so the federal government have full jurisdiction apart from state's sovereignty.

Your last opinion is political. Wishing a 1 party Democrat government. Good luck with that. I don't argue with political opinions but please leave Puerto Rico out of it. You weren't born or lived in Puerto Rico and you don't speak for millions of them and don't understand their culture. You don't even speak Spanish. There is a reason after 122 years of American rule, they want to keep their own identity, keep Spanish as their main language, keep their Olympics and Miss Universe, they don't feel Americans, they take offense if you call don't call them Boricuas or Puerto Ricans and most will take offense if you call them Americans and they only fly their Puerto Rican flag and 73% of the electorate boycotted the last statehood referendum in the island. Democrats are foolish pushing for statehood under the facts for political power in the states and stacking up the decks in Congress because it's a recipe for violence, protests and civil war. Stay with D.C. politics. Like they say in the U.S., Puerto Rico is a different animal (not comparing to an animal) which is complicated and has so many variables that could blow up in the face of the U.S.
None of what you are saying here invalidates anything that I've posted here. DC is not proposing that there not be a Federal District, you are overlooking that. It would be redefining of the boundaries of the Federal District. So the situation is very different than Puerto Rico. Everything that you are saying "can't be done", can be done in actuality. The constitution can be amended, you just said it yourself. I'm not going to get into DC any further. Puerto Rico does have it's own set of reasons that it may not become a state, that is totally understood do to it having an entire history as a country of it's own first. However there will be an increasing amount of conversation on this with the large diaspora of natives to the island moving to continental US states and the increasing political problems on the island.

Lastly, I don't know if you are directing your disdain towards me personally, but I offered only my personal perspective first, and have only been replying to posts here since.

Y ademas no me conoces, y si hablo espanol muy muy bien.
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Old 09-20-2020, 01:06 AM
 
772 posts, read 170,172 times
Reputation: 515
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09 View Post
None of what you are saying here invalidates anything that I've posted here. DC is not proposing that there not be a Federal District, you are overlooking that. It would be redefining of the boundaries of the Federal District. So the situation is very different than Puerto Rico. Everything that you are saying "can't be done", can be done in actuality. The constitution can be amended, you just said it yourself. I'm not going to get into DC any further. Puerto Rico does have it's own set of reasons that it may not become a state, that is totally understood do to it having an entire history as a country of it's own first. However there will be an increasing amount of conversation on this with the large diaspora of natives to the island moving to continental US states and the increasing political problems on the island.

Lastly, I don't know if you are directing your disdain towards me personally, but I offered only my personal perspective first, and have only been replying to posts here since.

Y ademas no me conoces, y si hablo espanol muy muy bien.
LOL. The Spanish spoken in Puerto Rico is a lot different than the Spanish you learned in the states. My point is don't push a propaganda of statehood without understanding the people in Puerto Rico and the facts that I mentioned about them. Statehood is NOT going to fix the political problems and corruption in Puerto Rico. It will make it worse. If you have a girlfriend or a wife that mismanages your bank account and credit cards your solution is not give her more money or more financial power of your finances. Statehood means more federal money for the same politicians to control and more federal grab. Puerto Rico is too dependent of the government and statehood will make it worse and their identity is another topic and part of the debate. When they want to keep Spanish as their main language, keep their own Olympics, Miss Universe (that's call identity as a nation), fly only their flag and they don't feel Americans that should give pause for everyone before pushing an half baked statehood for political reasons for Pelosi and the Democrat party and the statehood party in power in Puerto Rico who have created this mess for decades and are just looking for more federal money and political power.

I don't know you to have disdain for you. So don't feel that way. I was trying to make a point from an outsider looking at them.

Going back to D.C, you have a constitutional issue and political issue. Both look bad for making DC a state regardless if Pelosi passed it in the house to throw red meat to the party's donors. That's like making a city of 68 miles (minus the Federal Government land ) in a Red State into a full blown state to stack up the deck in Congress for the GOP. You think if DC was a Republican City with white people that Pelosi would have pushed this bill? you know the answer to that. That's the political one. Then you have the constitution one and the past declaration of the courts which created precedent.



https://www.heritage.org/the-constit...tically-flawed


https://www.heritage.org/political-p...onal-amendment
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Old 09-21-2020, 04:23 PM
bu2
 
18,818 posts, read 9,334,278 times
Reputation: 8242
Quote:
Originally Posted by the resident09 View Post
None of what you are saying here invalidates anything that I've posted here. DC is not proposing that there not be a Federal District, you are overlooking that. It would be redefining of the boundaries of the Federal District. So the situation is very different than Puerto Rico. Everything that you are saying "can't be done", can be done in actuality. The constitution can be amended, you just said it yourself. I'm not going to get into DC any further. Puerto Rico does have it's own set of reasons that it may not become a state, that is totally understood do to it having an entire history as a country of it's own first. However there will be an increasing amount of conversation on this with the large diaspora of natives to the island moving to continental US states and the increasing political problems on the island.

Lastly, I don't know if you are directing your disdain towards me personally, but I offered only my personal perspective first, and have only been replying to posts here since.

Y ademas no me conoces, y si hablo espanol muy muy bien.
That bill can't pass without a constitutional amendment. The shrunken DC would still have 3 electoral votes.
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Old 09-21-2020, 10:26 PM
 
772 posts, read 170,172 times
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Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
That bill can't pass without a constitutional amendment. The shrunken DC would still have 3 electoral votes.

Pelosi doesn't need the 3 electoral. She wants the 2 Senators to stack up the deck in Congress to pass judges and the budget. At the last minute they want to push Puerto Rico also, that's 2 more Senators in a heavily Democrat electorate and to give Florida to Biden. Both places are political. If DC and Puerto Rico were heavily white Republican electorate you think Pelosi and Democrats would be pushing for this in an election year ignoring the constitution and the courts for D.C. and the mess of identity in Puerto Rico? you know the answer to that.


Forcing statehood in political backroom deals in an island where millions of people don't feel Americans, want to keep Spanish as the main language, want to keep their own Olympics and Miss Universe (identity) only fly their flag and refuses to teach American Civics in their public schools to fully accept the American system is asking for a mess of violence, protests and a civil war in the streets if they push this half baked statehood.

I lived there for years. In the real Puerto Rico, not the hotels tourism Puerto Rico isolated from the masses. Those things that I mention are real and the reality in the island. So instead having a debate with the facts and look at other acceptable statuses so they keep what important to them, some want to push this Puerto Rican statehood with no details. They just want to ram it through Congress.

The last statehood referendum in 2017, 77% of the electorate boycotted the election against statehood and the 23% that voted, statehood won by 97%. Then they spin the whole reality and tells Congress that they have a huge majority for statehood and for Congress to pass the statehood bill quick and send to Puerto Rico millions of dollars in federal aid to have an official referendum for the campaign for all political parfties. NO details about the facts I mentioned. You would think the statehood party in the island sees the reality and accept defeat and go back to the drawing board and start again but nooooooo, they change the reality and keep repeating over and over lies as facts and facts as lies and here we are with this joke.
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