U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > U.S. Territories
 [Register]
U.S. Territories Puerto Rico, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, etc.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Should Puerto Rico become a state or an independent nation?
State 53 41.73%
Independent nation 64 50.39%
Other (please specify in your post) 10 7.87%
Voters: 127. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 03-30-2020, 11:48 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,067 posts, read 14,919,593 times
Reputation: 2804

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Spain under Franco was a poor country by European standards. What it is today is compliments of the Germany and other EU taxpayers who invested billions into Spain and Portugal when they joined. Prior to 936 PR used to be poorer than DR. Do you know that Puerto Ricans used to go over to the DR and also to the USVI to cut cane in the early 20th C?
outside of Calaluna, that was always true. Spain's wealth wasn't built on trade but on the importation of gold from the new world and never really developed it's own successful economy. it remains a fragmented country with much of the wealth produced in cataluna.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 03-30-2020, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,067 posts, read 14,919,593 times
Reputation: 2804
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Cuba had a thriving business class, many of whom also invested in Florida. By the late 50s the Cuban sugar industry was substantially in Cuban hands. It was the tourism sector that was largely US owned. Cuban also had a developed industrial base, much of it owned by Cubans as well.
I think you are missing the point here.
Quote:
Much of Cuba’s GDP during the pre-Castro period was based on
exports of sugar. Cuba was a principal exporter of sugar to the United
States. In fact, sugar exports made up 89% of total Cuban exports in
1950.39The United States imported substantial quantities of sugar from
Cuba prior to the embargo, with Cuban sugar comprising 49% of total
sugar consumed in the United States in 1928...The United
States received 71% of Cuban exports and sold 64% of Cuba’s
imports.
https://www.law.georgetown.edu/inter...GJIL180020.pdf

in addition to exports, the US, perhaps most infamously, US based mafia, was heavily invested in cuban tourism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
CARICOM exists and I suspect that it is a much tighter arrangement than ASEAN. They have developed a coordinated approach to deal with Covid 19 and jointly procure medical supplies. Their CDC equivalent is regionally managed and based in Trinidad. They coordinate disaster relief when hurricanes hit, and engage in other forms of functional cooperation. So its more than just trade. The Spanish speaking Caribbean isnt included because they aren't compatible. Haiti and Suriname are included. The remainder are non sovereign entities so cannot fully participate.
Perhaps the countries are just less successful on their own terms for various reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The USA doesnt care 2 cents about the Caribbean, even Puerto Rico, so I dont know why some think that statehood would make a difference. Neither Americans nor Puerto Ricans consider Puerto Ricans to be anything other than non US people who carry US citizenship. Do you see Puerto Ricans cheering for US teams (including no Puerto Ricans) in international competitions? In that case I bet many will cheer the DR instead.
as is clearly seen with cuba, the US does, in fact, care what happens in the carribbean. For most Americans, prior to hurricane maria, they did not think about Puerto ricans at all. Off the radar. since Maria, tourism has surged to unprecedented levels. why? consciousness of its existence. the top three sports are boxing, baseball, and basketball. If Puerto Ricans root for the dominican it is an awkward relationship at best given how Puerto Ricans speak of Dominicans normally. There are, in fact, legitimate arguments for and against statehood and independence.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2020, 01:45 PM
 
3,044 posts, read 1,315,748 times
Reputation: 2318
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
The US census shows this because it imposes US definitions of racial identity on an entirely different culture.

I bet if they used descriptors that allow for people to identify using intermediate categories commonly used throughout the Spanish Caribbean you will not see 80% white.
No it does not. The census allows people identify with any race or combination of races they want. It doesn't impose anything.

80% of Puerto Ricans are just white. Just 10% were mixed race, and fewer than that were black.

Quote:
Puerto Ricans in NY identify differently because they know that "white" within a US setting doesnt include them so most check "other". This being an accurate description of a people who are a diverse mix of Taino, Spanish (and other European) and African ancestry.
If Puerto Ricans wanted to identify as mixed race, they could have done that. The census allows for that, and the instructions are very clear. They did not. They are white alone.

Quote:
You will make people laugh at you if you insist that "80% of Puerto Ricans are white".
That is what they call themselves! I'm not inventing anything.

Quote:
Do you hate your Taino and African ancestry that much?
I am not Puerto Rican!
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-30-2020, 07:20 PM
 
1,704 posts, read 862,984 times
Reputation: 1987
Default sasie123

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScoPro View Post
They’ve been voting on this since I lived in Old San Juan 1950-1954.
It is past time to let them go on their own.
Look what has happened to Haiti, once it became independent.

Now, that Puerto Rico has earthquakes, massive hurricanes, and ocean erosion, more than ever will need the help of the USA, to survive......too many people, for too little land........and anyone that sees it differently, is not dealing with reality.....
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2020, 08:37 AM
 
8,283 posts, read 6,803,206 times
Reputation: 4392
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
outside of Calaluna, that was always true. Spain's wealth wasn't built on trade but on the importation of gold from the new world and never really developed it's own successful economy. it remains a fragmented country with much of the wealth produced in cataluna.
Which is why I dont know why some think that PR would have been great under Spain.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2020, 09:48 AM
 
8,283 posts, read 6,803,206 times
Reputation: 4392
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
.


as is clearly seen with cuba, the US does, in fact, care what happens in the carribbean. For most Americans, prior to hurricane maria, they did not think about Puerto ricans at all. Off the radar. since Maria, tourism has surged to unprecedented levels. why? consciousness of its existence. the top three sports are boxing, baseball, and basketball. If Puerto Ricans root for the dominican it is an awkward relationship at best given how Puerto Ricans speak of Dominicans normally. There are, in fact, legitimate arguments for and against statehood and independence.
PRs and DRs are closer culturally than either are to "mainstream" Americans. One can be PC as much as one wants to be but you cannot be "American" without full fluency in English. I suspect that a high % of Cubans dont meet that categorization.

And the USA does NOT care about the Caribbean, which is why China is marching in, despite what Pompeo has to say about that. I think that PRs experience from Maria should have been an indicator.

As to Cuba, while sugar accounted for a high % of its exports, by 1959 it was Cuban owned. In addition, with a high per capita income (at the time the 4th highest in the Americas, behind the USA, Canada and Argentina), Cuba had a large service sector and a manufacturing base aimed at the domestic markets.

The USA bought sugar from Cuba, not because they "cared" about Cuba. Its because they needed its sugar. Does the USA "care" about China, or is it in its best business interests to outsource aspects of the supply chain to that nation?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2020, 10:29 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,067 posts, read 14,919,593 times
Reputation: 2804
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
PRs and DRs are closer culturally than either are to "mainstream" Americans. One can be PC as much as one wants to be but you cannot be "American" without full fluency in English. I suspect that a high % of Cubans dont meet that categorization.
jazz came from new orleans because of the french and african influences prevalent there but became popular in the US. so goes the march of history, mixing influences as time marches on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
And the USA does NOT care about the Caribbean, which is why China is marching in, despite what Pompeo has to say about that. I think that PRs experience from Maria should have been an indicator.
don't agree with this whatsoever. the carribean is not the highest priority but it is incorrect to say the US doesn't care. if the US begins to view China as more of a threat, so too will its view of china in the carribean change. increased relations with china, of course, comes with its own tradeoffs. As for hurricanes, we could look at the difference in response between Katrina and Sandy in NY, certainly they reflect political clout to some extent but not strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
As to Cuba, while sugar accounted for a high % of its exports, by 1959 it was Cuban owned. In addition, with a high per capita income (at the time the 4th highest in the Americas, behind the USA, Canada and Argentina), Cuba had a large service sector and a manufacturing base aimed at the domestic markets.

The USA bought sugar from Cuba, not because they "cared" about Cuba. Its because they needed its sugar. Does the USA "care" about China, or is it in its best business interests to outsource aspects of the supply chain to that nation?
again, none of this denies the strong links the island had to the US. the value of the sugar industry was largely dependent on its relationship with the US where it received favorable tariff treatment. lastly, we saw what happened when the new cuba invited a rival power and it is no different when, say, ukraine wants to purchase american military equipment, suddenly, russia has something to say about how its neighbor runs its defense program. that is how the world works for better or worse.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 03-31-2020, 05:52 PM
 
8,283 posts, read 6,803,206 times
Reputation: 4392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tritone View Post
No it does not. The census allows people identify with any race or combination of races they want. It doesn't impose anything.

80% of Puerto Ricans are just white. Just 10% were mixed race, and fewer than that were black.



If Puerto Ricans wanted to identify as mixed race, they could have done that. The census allows for that, and the instructions are very clear. They did not. They are white alone.



That is what they call themselves! I'm not inventing anything.



I am not Puerto Rican!
Puerto Ricans can identify as they wish.

https://puertoricangenealogy.weebly....rican-dna.html

Puerto Ricans are a proud blend of Europeans (male), Tainos (female), and Africans (male and female), so diverse that its a complete waste of time to divide them using North American definitions of race. One can classify them based on skin color, hair texture and facial features, occurring in many combinations, often within a nuclear family.

So many can show contempt for their Taino/African roots as they so wish (even as many deplore the "one drop rule" of the USA), but what is obvious is that 80% aren't white. In fact only around 40% of the Puerto Ricans in NYC identify as such.

Neither AOC, nor JLo are "white".
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2020, 07:13 PM
 
3,044 posts, read 1,315,748 times
Reputation: 2318
Quote:
Originally Posted by caribny View Post
Puerto Ricans can identify as they wish.
Yes, I agree. And they are white.

Quote:
its a complete waste of time to divide them using North American definitions of race.
Nobody is imposing any "north American definitions of race" on them. The census allows for any combination of races - if they wanted to be Spanish/taino or whatever, they could that. They say that they are just white.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-01-2020, 08:20 PM
 
1,704 posts, read 862,984 times
Reputation: 1987
Default sasie123

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern man View Post
By all means, Independent Nation. We don’t need another state.
THAT does not sound very nice........
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > U.S. Territories
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2021, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top