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Old 07-07-2020, 09:00 AM
 
Location: Philly
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no reason the island can't emerge from bankruptcy before becoming a state except no one can agree on a deal with creditors.
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Old 08-03-2020, 02:56 PM
 
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Originally Posted by AntonioR View Post
If we were to look at the national debt of the United States, it's in the trillions of dollars and growing every year. That number is so large, so astronomical, so humungous that I can't even visualize what trillions of dollars is like. Its more than what the USA economy produces on a yearly basis. If that's the standard used, then the USA itself is bankrupt.

I already have issues imagining what billions of dollars are like, but we are talking of trillions (and with a 'S' at the end, plural at that level) of dollars. Simply insane!!!

Given that reality, I think the debt of Puerto Rico is a drop in a bucket by comparison. Anyone that uses the economic situation of Puerto Rico as a support for not making it a state is simply using it as an excuse, as far as I'm concerned.

That's despite that I have no real desire in the political state of Puerto Rico. I'm perfectly fine if that island becomes one more state of the USA, one more country of the world, integration to another country or remains as it's right now.

As we can see with the current situation with the Feds they are reluctant to assume the indebtedness of a state. States have as legitimate a claim for budget supports as do the airlines but yet the Feds seem reluctant to support them. And this includes power houses like NY and CA which generate far more revenues for the Feds than they receive in transfers. So no one wants PR as a state. They are just reluctant to evict them, which independence will mean.
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Old 08-03-2020, 03:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by pman View Post
no reason the island can't emerge from bankruptcy before becoming a state except no one can agree on a deal with creditors.
A question for those who advocate statehood. The income tax paid by residents of PR goes to that island's gov't and not to the US Treasury. So if PR does become a state and income taxes are paid to the US Treasury how is PR going to generate revenues? I dont think that one can be a poor state and yet levy high local taxes.
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Old 09-14-2020, 09:51 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowlane3 View Post
Puerto Rico has held referendums (special elections) on several occasions on the matter., over the years.

Each time, a majority (or plurality) of voters have elected to remain a commonwealth.
Well the last one overwhelmingly voted for statehood, but opponents boycotted it.

Each time there has been a vote, independence gets about 5% of the vote. That is last on the list of options for most Puerto Ricans.
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Old 09-16-2020, 04:29 PM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
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Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
Well the last one overwhelmingly voted for statehood, but opponents boycotted it.

Each time there has been a vote, independence gets about 5% of the vote. That is last on the list of options for most Puerto Ricans.
Overwhelmingly? Well, if the protest vote was 77% of the electorate that boycotted the statehood referendum and only 23% voted for statehood then you have a problem. The United States federal government isn't dumb like the PNP politicians treat the voters in Puerto Rico.

That's like saying Joe Bloe won the election with 23% of the electorate while 77% boycotted the election because he was the candidate and protested him and you turn around and say the majority of the voters supported him and he won by a landslide. The 77% will just laugh at you.
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Old 09-17-2020, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Casper, WY
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
That's like saying Joe Bloe won the election with 23% of the electorate while 77% boycotted the election because he was the candidate and protested him and you turn around and say the majority of the voters supported him and he won by a landslide. The 77% will just laugh at you.
Except that's what usually happens on local elections in many places. Voter turnout is low in these elections--often laughably so--and the candidate who wins, wins. I'd bet that you can with many local elections with less than 20% of voters. That said, I do understand the point you are making. Statehood is a pretty big deal and may be different as it's pretty irreversible.
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Old 09-18-2020, 10:09 AM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
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Originally Posted by sipes23 View Post
Except that's what usually happens on local elections in many places. Voter turnout is low in these elections--often laughably so--and the candidate who wins, wins. I'd bet that you can with many local elections with less than 20% of voters. That said, I do understand the point you are making. Statehood is a pretty big deal and may be different as it's pretty irreversible.
That's not in the case in Puerto Rico. Their voter turnout is at 80% in elections, the lowest one was at 55%. Statehood referendums have a higher bar than elections. The reason is elections are only for 4 year term or death/impeachment/resignation of the state official. It has an expiration date and Statehood is forever. The population in the island are permanently under the jurisdiction of the U.S. government and their future generations and they can't get out of statehood. Forever. NO expiration date. That's why the precedent in allowing states in Congress is bipartisan which both parties support is at 2/3 or pretty close and the territory that wants to become state have a solid majority from their electorate.

No state in the union has been accepted with 51% of the vote in Congress, 1 party support and only 23% of the electorate support in the territory. Not 1 and they shouldn't allow it for 1 political party in Puerto Rico who obviously wants to lower the bar so low and push for a half baked statehood while ignoring millions of their residents that reject statehood that will bring many problems in the future.

Imagine making a state that half of the population (it's more according to the numbers) doesn't want it. Doesn't feel Americans and statehood was forced on them with cheap politics and back rooms deals. That could be a recipe for civil unrest, violent protests and a civil war. The United States are not stupid. They see the same facts on the ground so they keep the status quo. The same status quo the people in Puerto Rico in 1952 picked by over 80% of the electorate which is Commonwealth. The only ones making noise is the PNP (Statehood party) in power in Puerto Rico. The party that has mismanaged the island for decades and now they want to push for this half baked statehood at the lowest bar possible to have access to more federal funds and be a member in the political club in Congress which means for $$$$ and they got allies ($$$$$) in the Democrat party in the states. Many people in the island see what is going on. Sadly, the people in the states don't and go alone with the media's narrative which is disingenuous at best while ignoring many Puerto Ricans and their wishes.

So when only 23% of the electorate votes for statehood while 77% boycotted it when the average voter turnout in the general elections is 80% and the lowest recorded in recent history is 55% then the statehood people have a huge problem. The Republican party sees this and rejects it but the Democrat party sees Democrat votes not only in the island but in the states so they are pushing for it with a disingenuous propaganda of "equality". Politics what can you say?

Last edited by SanJuanStar; 09-18-2020 at 10:24 AM..
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:31 PM
bu2
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
Overwhelmingly? Well, if the protest vote was 77% of the electorate that boycotted the statehood referendum and only 23% voted for statehood then you have a problem. The United States federal government isn't dumb like the PNP politicians treat the voters in Puerto Rico.

That's like saying Joe Bloe won the election with 23% of the electorate while 77% boycotted the election because he was the candidate and protested him and you turn around and say the majority of the voters supported him and he won by a landslide. The 77% will just laugh at you.
96% of the vote is pretty overwhelming. To say otherwise is just stupid. As I noted, there was a boycott.

77% didn't boycott. Some percentage boycotted. Many simply didn't vote as normally happens in elections.

They boycotted because they were afraid they would lose. So they simply chose not to play.
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Old 09-21-2020, 05:33 PM
bu2
 
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You are really distorting what happened. In all their referendums, statehood and commonwealth have been close. Independence has been far behind at around 5%.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:09 AM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
96% of the vote is pretty overwhelming. To say otherwise is just stupid. As I noted, there was a boycott.

77% didn't boycott. Some percentage boycotted. Many simply didn't vote as normally happens in elections.

They boycotted because they were afraid they would lose. So they simply chose not to play.
have you lived there? are you familiar with there local elections personally? I have. I voted in Puerto Rico. The highest turnouts are 88% for decades and the lowest was 55% in 2016 first time over 1 century. When the Commonwealth Party and the Independence party campaigned for the boycott against statehood and only 23% (the lowest in history) of the electorate voted then you can't make lame excuses and should admit defeat for statehood. The opposing parties did their goal. They drove down support for statehood to 23% of the electorate. You can't go to Congress or Disneyland demanding statehood with that lame 23% showing. That's less than half of 50%.


You want to carry water for the statehood spinners go ahead, ignore reality. In NO election in the history of Puerto Rico for 100 years, the electorate fell below 50%, NONE. Their average is over 80% for decades and the first time it came down to 55% (still over 50%) was in 2016 because the 4 candidates sucked. It was bad (that's another topic) . To say only 23% of the electorate voting is normal like all of their other elections is either lying or don't know much about Puerto Rico. You can fool the people that don't know but not the people that do know and have lived there.


You can't spin the 23%. That is a DEFEAT for the statehood party in Puerto Rico. They look foolish selling it and spinning reality.

By the way, this happened also in 1998. The father of Governor Ricky Rosello (forced to quit) was Governor Pedro Rosello. He forced a statehood referendum when the people told don't it, it was a waste of time and a waste of federal funds, he did it anyway. You know the results?
71% turnout (not the 23% joke) Statehood 46.6%, 50.5% NONE of the options. 2.6% Independence. The Commonwealth forces campaigned for the NONE of the options which was an anti-statehood vote. They won that also. See a pattern? Now fast forward to 2017. From a 71% turnout in 1998. The Anti-Statehood movement campaigned and brought it down to the lowest in history in Puerto Rico to 23% and your respond is : "nah, that's normal in every election. Statehood won big" LOL!
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