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Old 09-22-2020, 12:32 AM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
Reputation: 326

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Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
You are really distorting what happened. In all their referendums, statehood and commonwealth have been close. Independence has been far behind at around 5%.

you don't know what you are talking about. Statehood has NEVER been the majority of the electorate in Puerto Rico. The closest they got was 46% of the electorate and that's with them in power in the government spending more , controlling the referendum and spinning like crazy and still they can't get to 50% of the electorate. Now is 23% of the electorate which is a huge failure and they still want to push it.

What they do once in power, they stack the deck in the definitions of the options and limits the opposition, they control the government forcing the opposing options to boycott the referendum and when there is a 23% turnout and they get less than 23% of the electorate they spin the failure and sell it. It's joke and you in the states drink the kool-aid.

You can't go to Congress demanding statehood for Puerto Rico, force them to speak English as the main language and force them to feel Americans and force them into a Union that they could never get out that will change their future generations with a massive federal grab with less than 23% of the electorate.

getting 23% of the electorate is not close. It's a failure for the statehood movement.
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Old 09-22-2020, 11:08 AM
bu2
 
18,755 posts, read 9,155,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
you don't know what you are talking about. Statehood has NEVER been the majority of the electorate in Puerto Rico. The closest they got was 46% of the electorate and that's with them in power in the government spending more , controlling the referendum and spinning like crazy and still they can't get to 50% of the electorate. Now is 23% of the electorate which is a huge failure and they still want to push it.

What they do once in power, they stack the deck in the definitions of the options and limits the opposition, they control the government forcing the opposing options to boycott the referendum and when there is a 23% turnout and they get less than 23% of the electorate they spin the failure and sell it. It's joke and you in the states drink the kool-aid.

You can't go to Congress demanding statehood for Puerto Rico, force them to speak English as the main language and force them to feel Americans and force them into a Union that they could never get out that will change their future generations with a massive federal grab with less than 23% of the electorate.

getting 23% of the electorate is not close. It's a failure for the statehood movement.
You have an agenda and distort the truth.

The US has 50-55% turnout of registered voters in presidential elections. Clinton got elected in 1992 with less than 23% of the registered voters.

I clearly said the opposition was boycotting the election when I mentioned the 96% approval figure. The 23% is totally irrelevant.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:13 PM
 
10,060 posts, read 4,945,526 times
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To correct more inaccuracies, the Philippines didn't "Ask for independence and get it".


The Philiippines was a Spanish colony for 300+ years. The US won the Philippines from Spain in the Spanish War of 1898; concurrently with the outbreak of a Philippine revolution for independence. The Philippine-American War broke out after it became apparent that the US was not going to agree to Philippine independence. Considerable efforts were spent by the US to maintain the Philippines in their colonial status and prevent outbreaks of rebellion. The public opinion battle for independence in the US was extensive.


In the 30s the Philippines was granted "commonwealth" status (same as PR has today). Whatever efforts or progress toward independence might have happened were delayed by the Japanese occupation. Basically, after the war, the US granted independence in return for the support of the Philippines populace and government-in-exile during the war, when it would have been easier for them to become a client state of Japan.


Stating "the Philippines asked for independence and got it" is a total mischaracterization of actual history.
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Old 09-22-2020, 12:39 PM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by bu2 View Post
You have an agenda and distort the truth.

The US has 50-55% turnout of registered voters in presidential elections. Clinton got elected in 1992 with less than 23% of the registered voters.

I clearly said the opposition was boycotting the election when I mentioned the 96% approval figure. The 23% is totally irrelevant.
You should have stop 2 posts ago. What agenda I have? I live in the states and I don't vote in Puerto Rico. I used to and I know more about Puerto Ricans and Puerto Rico in my pinky finger than your whole body. All you do is repeat the spin from the statehood party from Puerto Rico and have no clue what you are talking about and then keep lying. I don't know if it's on purpose or you just naive.


There is a saying in Puerto Rico that says: "El Ladron Juzga Por Su Condicion" (look it up if you care so much about Puerto Rico). Everything I said about Puerto Rico is a fact. That's why you can't dispute it and your responses are short and personal.


Here is another fact, the 1992 Presidential elections which is a 4 year term limit and has an expiration date unlike statehood that is forever and permanent, Puerto Ricans could NEVER get out and changes a culture forever has a lower standard because it's just a 4 year term. The turnout in the 1992 elections (4 year term) was 55% of the electorate. That's over 50% of the electorate. If it goes down to 23% (never has) then democracy in the U.S. is in serious trouble.


23% of the electorate voting is irrelevant? sure, keep telling yourself that and repeat the spin of a political party in Puerto Rico that wants to push an half baked Jibaro statehood for more federal funds and then accuse me that I'm the one with a political agenda and distort the truth. Take a look at yourself.

Here is another fact since you care so much about Puerto Rico. In 1998 when then governor Pedro Rosello pushed a "criollo" statehood referendum (it means it doesn't matter in Washington because they already know the results and don't care) he did right after Hurricane George that hit the island 3 months prior. You know why he did it? he wanted to push statehood on millions of Puerto Ricans vulnerable after a devastating hurricane and in their worst position in desperate need of help and his campaign was vote for statehood you will get more federal funds. That was their campaign. I was there living in San Juan. They were in power and controlled everything and still lost. It was 71% electorate turnout and statehood got 46% and the ANTI-Statehood got 51%. That was their best showing and still after all of their control and the hurricane desperate need they couldn't get to 50%. It was a failure.

Now the same people come back and get only 23% of the electorate to vote because the Anti-statehood movement boycotted the referendum and drove down the vote to 23% of the electorate which has NEVER happened in the island before something so low, never and your response is "it doesn't matter, continue with statehood" and then you accused me of having an agenda? LOL


Everything I said about Puerto Rico are facts. Try to dispute it if you can.
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Old 09-22-2020, 01:30 PM
 
2,259 posts, read 874,263 times
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Puerto Rico is a TERRITORY of the U.S.
Like Guam.
And the chances of gaining admission to the union in our lifetime is pretty much zilch.
If you feel the overwhelming urge to pay federal income taxes or vote for President move to the mainland... like half the population has already done.
Independence? And give up Federal $$$?
Hahahahaha.
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Old 09-22-2020, 03:18 PM
 
3,229 posts, read 3,622,196 times
Reputation: 4843
Quote:
Originally Posted by PamelaIamela View Post
Puerto Rico is a TERRITORY of the U.S.
Like Guam.
And the chances of gaining admission to the union in our lifetime is pretty much zilch.
If you feel the overwhelming urge to pay federal income taxes or vote for President move to the mainland... like half the population has already done.
Independence? And give up Federal $$$?
Hahahahaha
True! One thing I differ in is tax payments. If PR receives "tax dollars" then it should, in kind, pay "tax dollars."

Changing the subject, a friend of mine who lives on the island recently posted the following on social media:

"We all have that one Puerto Rican friend who fiercely wants Puerto Rican independence, yet lives on Mainland USA."

Let's just say, he ruffled a few feathers.

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Old 09-22-2020, 04:38 PM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
Reputation: 326
True. The independence movement is another failure. Their problem is they are into the socialism of Latino countries and that scares off voters, they are stuck at 3% of the electorate for decades and can't win 1 municipio (town) out if 78 in P.R., it's sad then they go to mainland to pound their chests as more patriotic than others screaming for a Chavista Independence Puerto Rico waving the Puerto Rican flags in everybody's faces living in a state. I just have to laugh. I have 3 teachers from Puerto Rico who taught me in the public schools who are hardcore independentistas. They all move to Texas, a very Republican state because Texas offered them way too much money to work and the taxes are lower and houses cheaper than P.R. but they go to their FB all the time supporting a Chavista Independence from their computer and sofa in Texas.

This is the dysfunctional politics of Puerto Rico on all sides. I lived there and I just gave up.

You got 1 party that with all the money and power and big microphone and empty promises in the Puerto Rican government can't get to 50% of the electorate support for statehood but they keep pushing for a miracle showing off a big T-BONE STEAK to hungry and poor people and spin their failures like crazy and love federal funds. They sell statehood for the poor in Puerto Rico who barely understands a few words of English and knows nothing about American Civics to vote for statehood because it's more federal funds for them. It's crazy.

You have another political party that dreams in the past and can't define the commonwealth (which the people picked by over 80% of the electorate in 1952) for the future or expand it. They are just stuck in limbo. They also love federal funds and let the statehood party push them around and limit their Commonwealth expansions in referendums so all they do is boycott (successfully) but that doesn't do anything at the end.

Then you have another party that are in bed with the socialists and extreme with Cuba and Venezuela with anti-American propaganda that can't get pass 3% of the electorate and can't win 1 town out of 78 when the other 2 parties are so bad and even for a 4 year term the people don't trust them. They also love federal aid. Most of them are in the public school system getting public funds and educating the youth. The other 2 parties have taken turn in power in Puerto Rico for decades and are so bad that they are basically telling the independentistas to take over for government for 1 or 2 terms because "We suck at it" and still the independentistas can't get pass 3% support and can't win 1 town out of 78. What does that tell you?


and you want to push an half baked jibaro statehood from that mess? good luck.

Last edited by SanJuanStar; 09-22-2020 at 04:53 PM..
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Old 09-22-2020, 05:19 PM
 
453 posts, read 114,613 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by turf3 View Post
To correct more inaccuracies, the Philippines didn't "Ask for independence and get it".


The Philiippines was a Spanish colony for 300+ years. The US won the Philippines from Spain in the Spanish War of 1898; concurrently with the outbreak of a Philippine revolution for independence. The Philippine-American War broke out after it became apparent that the US was not going to agree to Philippine independence. Considerable efforts were spent by the US to maintain the Philippines in their colonial status and prevent outbreaks of rebellion. The public opinion battle for independence in the US was extensive.


In the 30s the Philippines was granted "commonwealth" status (same as PR has today). Whatever efforts or progress toward independence might have happened were delayed by the Japanese occupation. Basically, after the war, the US granted independence in return for the support of the Philippines populace and government-in-exile during the war, when it would have been easier for them to become a client state of Japan.


Stating "the Philippines asked for independence and got it" is a total mischaracterization of actual history.
there is a difference between Puerto Rico and the Philippines. The United States granted Puerto Rico U.S. citizenship in 1917 while it never did the Philippines. The Philippines were at a constant war and it was bloody against the Americans. Puerto Rico never was at war with the U.S., except for a few independentistas that went revolution but the local Puerto Rican police took care of them in a few minutes. The United States never had to send the Marines in Puerto Rico to fight off the Puerto Ricans in the streets and in the hills like the Philippines.


Philippines did asked nicely for independence and for the U.S to leave, that colonialism was over but to get the attention of Americans because they are not in the business of giving real estate back and that goes to any empire in history you have to kill many of them while your side gets killed also for them to realize you mean business and you are willing to fight and die in your turf and show them you have the bigger will and more bodies than them and for the Americans it wasn't worth it. Americans realized they could have the prize as the big picture without a bloody war that they couldn't win.


After WW 2, Americans realized they could keep their bases in the Philippines and control the Asian market while giving the Philippines what they want with Japan out of the way.

That's the difference between the Filipinos and the Boricuas. One was willing to fight the Americans and die regardless if they are worse off (which history proves they are worse off) and the Boricuas who decided not to fight and they are better off under the American Flag. I was stationed in the Philippines. Lovely people but many parts of that country are very poor and I don't mean U.S. poor which is middle class in other countries. I mean 3rd world country poor with a government with high corruption at all levels. Philippines makes Mexico look good.
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:50 PM
 
3,229 posts, read 3,622,196 times
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One question I've asked regarding Puerto Rican independence is:

What would an independent Puerto Rico's economy be based on?

I once loosely discussed this with someone who favored independence. Quite frankly, the economy appeared as something this person had not taken into account. He mentioned agriculture, tourism, and that's about it.

I would love if someone who favors independence would describe the [possible] basis of an independent Puerto Rican economy. The only thing that comes to my mind is off-shore banking and pharmaceuticals.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:17 PM
mym
 
632 posts, read 914,366 times
Reputation: 742
medical appliances, rum, coffee and oil refinery if we can get that refinery working by Ponce...

basically a bit more than now
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