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Old 10-22-2020, 07:56 PM
mym
 
632 posts, read 914,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9162 View Post
Better yet, why doesn’t the U.S. relinquish Puerto Rico, why should the decision be solely their choice? This island is nothing but an expense.
well then it must be your fault. go vote in some useful politicians.
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Old 10-23-2020, 09:57 AM
 
453 posts, read 116,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 9162 View Post
Better yet, why doesn’t the U.S. relinquish Puerto Rico, why should the decision be solely their choice? This island is nothing but an expense.
American civics should be a course for you next. The U.S. is not in a business in giving real estate away. Owning a land of 130 x 35 miles is what the U.S. does. The people they gave U.S. Citizenship for over 1 century can't be relinquish against their will. It's like giving away a house but you are stuck with the people inside and all your doing is forcing them to move to your house. See how silly is your post?

Lets get rid of P.R. the land, so millions of citizens will come in waves to the states. I'm sure the governors especially Florida will love that plan.
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Old 10-23-2020, 12:44 PM
 
Location: Where the heart is...
4,923 posts, read 4,349,091 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
Um...it isn't in the first place. You're barking up the wrong tree. The "hostage dynamic" you bemoan is not real nor present. The disposition of a territory is unitarily the job of Congress; a political body that prides itself in drawing a wealthy paycheck and cadillac healthcare/retirement, but doesn't want to take the heat over the responsibility of doing the unpopular legislative job they signed up for in the first place. That includes the Neoliberal corporatist bought-and-paid-for cowards whatever state it is you hail from, sends to Congress.

The Judiciary is so politicized in the first place because the Legislative is so derelict of their duties. It's the latter the ones holding your territorial surrendering wet dream hostage. It's certainly not the island.

As to the island itself, it matters not. Support for independence in the island is statistically irrelevant. So it's not like you're ever going to attain the real end state you seek by just relinquishing the land. Without the legal ability to restrict US citizens from freely moving,

you're "stuck" with US.
This...exactly! And really, truth be known, this is exactly what the Puerto Rican people want. It is akin to having one's cake and eating it too .
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Old 10-23-2020, 11:39 PM
 
453 posts, read 116,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HomeIsWhere... View Post
This...exactly! And really, truth be known, this is exactly what the Puerto Rican people want. It is akin to having one's cake and eating it too .
Puerto Rico should take a lot of blame but you have to look at Washington for letting this happened and funding the island for decades. If you pray for rain you have to deal with the mud.

Elections have consequences and in 1952 both sides pushed for the Commonwealth status they have today and some complain that is not fair that they are not treated like a state when most of them voted against it.
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Old 10-24-2020, 02:05 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Ohio
13,421 posts, read 11,714,684 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
Puerto Rico should take a lot of blame but you have to look at Washington for letting this happened and funding the island for decades. If you pray for rain you have to deal with the mud.

Elections have consequences and in 1952 both sides pushed for the Commonwealth status they have today and some complain that is not fair that they are not treated like a state when most of them voted against it.
What you say is true, and while the treatment PR has gotten under the current administration after their natural disasters is deplorable, it shows the consequence of not being a state with political power. If anything, support for statehood should be higher than ever, since it is much easier for federal politicians to ignore their territory than their state with its two senators, US representative and three electoral votes. But of course there will be a lot of pushback against statehood in Washington (especially from Republicans) for that very reason. So I don't see the current situation changing any time soon.
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Old 10-24-2020, 08:36 AM
 
453 posts, read 116,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Natural510 View Post
What you say is true, and while the treatment PR has gotten under the current administration after their natural disasters is deplorable, it shows the consequence of not being a state with political power. If anything, support for statehood should be higher than ever, since it is much easier for federal politicians to ignore their territory than their state with its two senators, US representative and three electoral votes. But of course there will be a lot of push back against statehood in Washington (especially from Republicans) for that very reason. So I don't see the current situation changing any time soon.
DISAGREE. The ousting of Puerto Rico governor, Ricky Rosello and all of his cabinet officials and the e-mails that were made public shows Trump wasn't the problem and he was right all along about the corruption and people in Puerto Rico managing the federal funds and recovery and using the situation to get more federal funds. You even have the Secretary of Education (even she was taking money for her and her friends) charged in federal court for fraud and taking money in contracts with federal money. This is organized crime down there. Don't get me started on the Electric power which politicians in P.R. run and manage not Trump. Is that bad.

The emails shows the governor and his officials making fun of their own Puerto Rican people and refusing to help them and rerouting the federal funds to other places and contracts and telling each other they will just blame Trump when the people start demanding why things not done. It was working at first because the American media and Democrats went along until the emails were made public and people saw what was going on. That's why Biden never brought up Puerto Rico because he would be slapped down why the governor of P.R. was forced to quit and most of his administration had to quit also and charged with crimes. Is the first time in history of the island that a governor of Puerto Rico had to quit by forced by the people. Even members of his own party were demanding that he stepped down. It was that bad.

The Wall Street Journal had a piece recently why Puerto Rico shouldn't be a state. They brought up the fact that many of them reject it. It's call resistance. Most don't feel Americans, most don't speak English, most don't fly the American flag, only their own. Most want to keep their own Olympics and Miss Universe to keep their identity apart from the U.S. and they refuse to make mandatory American civics in their public schools. Those are enough reasons to take a pause about an half baked statehood that will implode with divisions, protests and violence in the island.

Last edited by SanJuanStar; 10-24-2020 at 09:39 AM..
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Old 10-24-2020, 10:42 AM
mym
 
632 posts, read 914,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
You wrote the reason you are anti-statehood for Puerto Rico (but live in the states) is because you studied American Civics and that's the reason you are anti-statehood?
no. i am not anti-statehood. i am pro-self government. pls refer to me as proselfgovernmentistx thank you very much.
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Old 10-24-2020, 12:02 PM
 
1,822 posts, read 4,188,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post

The Wall Street Journal had a piece recently why Puerto Rico shouldn't be a state. They brought up the fact that many of them reject it. It's call resistance. Most don't feel Americans, most don't speak English, most don't fly the American flag, only their own. Most want to keep their own Olympics and Miss Universe to keep their identity apart from the U.S. and they refuse to make mandatory American civics in their public schools. Those are enough reasons to take a pause about an half baked statehood that will implode with divisions, protests and violence in the island.
That didn't stop Anglo interests from annexing Hawaii. Granted, we don't have as much Anglo settler/displacer influence in PR as Oklahoma and Hawaii did when Congress all of the sudden finally started "caring" about their enfranchisement.

But the point remains. The idea that folkore is the bellwether of everything, is a bit superficial of an analysis. The faux-nationalism you keep highlighting about PR as some sort of smoking gun, is merely a product of a concerted effort by PR elites under the pro-commonwealth banner to manufacture consent for decades, in order to create the very environment that yields that sense of apartheid from their legal bona fide US citizenship. As such, it's not an organic happenstance, let alone one that cannot be flipped on its head just as well. How do we know? Because as you have stipulated already, support for independence is nil. So we can get stuck on that two-circle fight all day.

It takes political will on the part of the pro-statehood elites in the island. The pro-statehood players in the island are not honest actors in that regard, because they too view the Congressional empowerment of the plebe in the island as diluting their social clout. They're professional saboteurs, designated pinch-losers to the pro-commonwealth elites. Socially, they're all one in the same. Both sides love frolicking around the globe with that blue passport, and having their progeny be bilingual and well traveled around the CONUS. Hypocrites of the highest order, the entire lot of them, red and blue. Hell, even some independentistas are on that boat.

Which is why they've done an exceedingly standup job of keeping the plebe disenfranchised, as the latter is distracted by the manufactured consent. Frantically waving little handheld PR flags, cheering for fake pageants and inane sports rivalries that don't put food on the table (played by participants who were raised and do life and leisure in the CONUS mind you!). Meanwhile the middle classes keep sending their adult children to the states in the perennial brain drain (yours truly in that demographic) that looks like something out of the Fall of Saigon more than a "voluntary" relocation for discretionary reasons.

The cognitive dissonance of Puerto Rican "nationalism", in full display. Which is why it's the laughing stock of Latin America (Puerto Rican nationalism, not PR economically). Seeing the case studies of OK and HI, I'm not in the least swayed by the relevance of puerto rican faux-nationhood, and I am a native islander. I'm not suggesting statehood is around the corner, I'm just saying it's not for the reason you suggest (the folklore thing).

Last edited by hindsight2020; 10-24-2020 at 12:41 PM..
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Old 10-25-2020, 12:32 AM
 
453 posts, read 116,212 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mym View Post
no. i am not anti-statehood. i am pro-self government. pls refer to me as proselfgovernmentistx thank you very much.

You independentistas play a lot with words and think you are smarter than you think you are. The definition of pro-self government is the ability of a group or individual to exercise all necessary functions of regulation without intervention from an external authority. The United States is a pro-self government and you as an independentista view the federal government as a EXTERNAL authority even though you live in the states and it's funny to me that you view authority in your state as external. If you are not for statehood and are for independence like you have stated here forever then that makes you Anti-Statehood. The definition of anti is opposed, against. Again, you independentistas play a lot with words and change definitions a lot.


In Puerto Rico the independentistas try to avoid the word "independence" because it's bad for politics and votes so they use words like sovereignty, self government, free association so the public doesn't think of "La Republica" Most of them are intellectuals from the Puerto Rico Universities so they know how to manipulate words with poems.


you are welcome very much.
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Old 10-25-2020, 01:28 AM
 
453 posts, read 116,212 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
That didn't stop Anglo interests from annexing Hawaii. Granted, we don't have as much Anglo settler/displacer influence in PR as Oklahoma and Hawaii did when Congress all of the sudden finally started "caring" about their enfranchisement.

But the point remains. The idea that folkore is the bellwether of everything, is a bit superficial of an analysis. The faux-nationalism you keep highlighting about PR as some sort of smoking gun, is merely a product of a concerted effort by PR elites under the pro-commonwealth banner to manufacture consent for decades, in order to create the very environment that yields that sense of apartheid from their legal bona fide US citizenship. As such, it's not an organic happenstance, let alone one that cannot be flipped on its head just as well. How do we know? Because as you have stipulated already, support for independence is nil. So we can get stuck on that two-circle fight all day.

It takes political will on the part of the pro-statehood elites in the island. The pro-statehood players in the island are not honest actors in that regard, because they too view the Congressional empowerment of the plebe in the island as diluting their social clout. They're professional saboteurs, designated pinch-losers to the pro-commonwealth elites. Socially, they're all one in the same. Both sides love frolicking around the globe with that blue passport, and having their progeny be bilingual and well traveled around the CONUS. Hypocrites of the highest order, the entire lot of them, red and blue. Hell, even some independentistas are on that boat.

Which is why they've done an exceedingly standup job of keeping the plebe disenfranchised, as the latter is distracted by the manufactured consent. Frantically waving little handheld PR flags, cheering for fake pageants and inane sports rivalries that don't put food on the table (played by participants who were raised and do life and leisure in the CONUS mind you!). Meanwhile the middle classes keep sending their adult children to the states in the perennial brain drain (yours truly in that demographic) that looks like something out of the Fall of Saigon more than a "voluntary" relocation for discretionary reasons.

The cognitive dissonance of Puerto Rican "nationalism", in full display. Which is why it's the laughing stock of Latin America (Puerto Rican nationalism, not PR economically). Seeing the case studies of OK and HI, I'm not in the least swayed by the relevance of puerto rican faux-nationhood, and I am a native islander. I'm not suggesting statehood is around the corner, I'm just saying it's not for the reason you suggest (the folklore thing).



You make very good points. We both lived in the island and have very similar views. There are many reasons even though you don't put the folklore thing on top of the list. Folklore is good but when you use it to set apart the U.S. like 2 world's apart and paint it like them vs US to keep the status quo then it's a problem on the inside and the perception on the outside looking in. It adds to the list because the last thing the U.S. needs is a left wing banana republic dysfunctional state that needs constantly baby sitting from Uncle Sam and many who have NO loyalty to the U.S. flag or the U.S. Constitution only for federal funds.


You are more positive than me that statehood could be reach. I just don't see it in my lifetime and I'm almost half a century old. I lived there and not in private communities or went to private schools like some of my American friends and the elites from the island did, they had it good. I was in the REAL Puerto Rico, living with the masses, going to their public schools, taking public transportation and dealing with their government and services. Just an example, My mom had to wait 6 months to get telephone service turn on when it was run by the Puerto Rico government. It wasn't that we live in a rural place and they had to bring the tractors and dig the holes or put posts, this was city and the telephone lines were already in the house and all it was needed was a tech to come to the outside of the house and switch it on, I could have done it myself if the box wasn't locked. 6 month wait. I had to deal with the Puerto Rican power company and other agencies and go in person and pay their outrages bill and fight with the government employees that were awful with bad service with a bad attitude and deal with the other government agencies which they required you to go to multiple government agencies and buy stamps so the other agency can take care of you. Long lines. It was a real twilight zone. They should make a movie about it. I would call it "Escape from Puerto Rico"



I was stationed in Hawaii. Their history, circumstances and fate is a lot different than Puerto Rico. They always had a strong statehood movement since they were a territory from big business in the island and the elites. Opposite to Puerto Rico. They teach the good English and American Civics in their public schools way before they were a state, P.R. doesn't. Hawaii let the U.S. put their Pacific Fleet in their territory and let service members move there with their families, P.R. kicked out the Navy and that campaign was nasty against the U.S. Armed Forces (I was there). It had the anti-war movement from Vietnam tone. People burning American flags and treating the U.S. Navy like they were Nazis and the Naval base like it was a concentration camp, it was crazy. Even the Puerto Ricans living in New York where in Madison Square Garden who doesn't live in Vieques, P.R. let alone the main island or care less were booing the American National Anthem in sport events because of the Navy. Hawaii never did that crap and never demanded to have their own Olympics apart from the U.S. like Puerto Rico did. The list is long.
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