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Old 02-13-2024, 07:28 AM
 
Location: Philly
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Does anyone know whether a ship built in PR would qualify as a Jones Act ship?
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Old 02-14-2024, 08:23 PM
 
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Puerto Rico is a U.S. Territory and Puerto Ricans are U.S. Citizens. Puerto Rico are under the jurisdiction of all federal laws and are protected by Congress.
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Old 02-15-2024, 12:45 PM
 
Location: Philly
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Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
Puerto Rico is a U.S. Territory and Puerto Ricans are U.S. Citizens. Puerto Rico are under the jurisdiction of all federal laws and are protected by Congress.
you didn't answer the question which is whether, by the law you love, a ship built in PR is considered a Jones Act ship or does it have to be built in a state.
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Old 02-15-2024, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
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Aren’t the ship’s “nationality” decided by where is registered and not where is made? Wouldn’t that decide if a ship can dock in Puerto Rico, given that only USA ships can dock there?

I could be wrong, but isn’t anything registered in PR is registered in the USA? Look at the people. Puerto Ricans “made” in the island officially are Americans even if they live their entire life in PR.

Another sign are the vehicles that can be sold in PR. You will have a hard time finding an official Peageot, Renault or SEAT deslership in PR just like anywhere else in the USA. There are Peageot dealerships in the Caribbean close to PR, but you don’t even see their cars/SUV in PR streets. There are Peugeot dealerships in neighboring DR. A Puerto Rican might be able to buy one in SD, but I don’t think it will be allowed to be shipped to PR or even for the customer to ship it himself. A Puerto Rican could technically buy a Chevrolet in SD and have no problems with shipping it to PR. In fact, there is a ferry between the two island and whike sometimes you will see cars in San Juan with DR plates, notice they aren’t of the Peugeot, SsangYong, Changan and other types that are sood in the DR but aren’t sold in PR.

If that’s the case, then why ships registered in PR not be treated as any ship registered in any USA state? That means it would be part of the Jones Act.

PS. I happen to like a lot the Peugeot 3008 SUV and wondered why this amazing vehicle isn’t seen anywhere in the USA. Hence, had to research that and then realize that despite the USA is one of the world’s richest country, Peugeot is one car brand with no official dealerships anywhere in the USA. I blew my mind away.
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Old 02-15-2024, 04:01 PM
 
Location: Philly
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The foreign dredge act requires ships be made in the us and made of us steel. The Jones Act requires ships between us ports also be us crews. If you could flag any ship then shipping would be a lot more competitive with more eligible supply. It's obviously very expensive to build a ship in the USA which is why there are so few ships built. Presumably it would be cheaper to build in pr but I've never heard of a Jones Act ship being built there which leads me to believe that either it would not be eligible or subsidies are only available to stateside builders.
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Old 02-16-2024, 12:05 AM
 
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Originally Posted by pman View Post
you didn't answer the question which is whether, by the law you love, a ship built in PR is considered a Jones Act ship or does it have to be built in a state.
For a person that hates the federal law but loves living in the U.S. and enjoy the benefits, I find amusing you don't know the U.S. jurisdiction covers Puerto Rico.

I did answer the question. Puerto Rico is U.S. territory. U.S. possession. Every Puerto Rican is a U.S. Citizen. Jones Act requirements 1.) be made in the United States (Any land that the U.S. has full jurisdiction) , 2.) be owned by an American citizen, and 3.) be crewed by American citizens or legal residents.

Are you building a boat in the island and that's your main hub? Are you the owner? are you a U.S citizen?. Is your crew U.S. citizens? Then you can go in between American ports with No issues and your crew is protected under federal law.

If not, you are restricted to go to 1 American port and leave but can't go to others American ports on the same trip and are not protected by federal laws. Since Puerto Rico is a U.S. port, you can't go from P.R. to the states as a non-American boat but We are all assuming that you are a U.S. Citizen and will sail under the American flag unless you think Puerto Rico is a sovereign independent nation.



By the way for the readers, most countries in the world, have their own Jones Act. 91 countries which is 80% of the world's coastline have their own Jones act. Not only it's going to be very hard for the U.S. to drop it in Congress but also for 90 countries in the world.
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Old 02-16-2024, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Philly
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
For a person that hates the federal law but loves living in the U.S. and enjoy the benefits, I find amusing you don't know the U.S. jurisdiction covers Puerto Rico.
as we both know the jones act is an abject failure that has neither preserved the country's shipbuilding nor has it provided any sort of military benefit. worse, it has made us ports the province of foreign ships. if you need to see this as hating federal law, so be it. the reality is being federal law is not a sign of a successful or beneficial law.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
I did answer the question.
false, you did not answer the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
be made in the United States (Any land that the U.S. has full jurisdiction)
this, sir, was the only question.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SanJuanStar View Post
By the way for the readers, most countries in the world, have their own Jones Act. 91 countries which is 80% of the world's coastline have their own Jones act. Not only it's going to be very hard for the U.S. to drop it in Congress but also for 90 countries in the world.
false, most countries have some form of cabotage but they do not have a jones act which is unusually restrictive for a free country. cabotage can take many forms, many wealthy countries are more liberal. some countries also provide direct subsidies to shipbuilders, in fact, all the major shipbuilding countries do this. jones act ships are not competitive globally and so are irrelevant. the same is true domestically, so jones act shipping is almost irrelevant outside the Mississippi and islands that have no choice. this is why trinidad supplies oil and gas to us territories rather than Texas. while it may be difficult to drop in the US due to san juan star's lobby, it does not affect other countries that do not fall under the control of congress nor do they have a jones act. have a nice day.

Last edited by pman; 02-16-2024 at 12:44 PM..
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Old 02-16-2024, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Somewhere on the Moon.
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Originally Posted by pman View Post
false, most countries have some form of cabotage but they do not have a jones act which is unusually restrictive for a free country.
I don’t know if what the US have regarding air travel is equivalent to a Jones Act, but even there it has restrictions. For example, only US airlines can fly from one US airport to another. Foreign airlines can only fly from another country to an international airport in the USA and the back out of the USA (whether the country heading to is from which it came from is irrelevant.) There are a few more restrictions including much of the tripulation in US airlines have to be US citizens or legal residents of the USA.

Here is the interesting part. Flights between Puerto Rico and the US mainland are considered domestic. You notice this in several ways including flights to San Juan from New York, Orlando, etc are considerably cheaper than say to other cities in the Caribbean except the other ones in PR or the US Virgin Islands. A passport isn’t required on US-Puerto Rico flights or vice versa. There are no non-US airlines that fly between the US mainland and Puerto Rico or vice versa. An American citizen/legal resident can buy a one way ticket from anywhere in the US mainland to PR or vice versa with no issue what-so-ever. When flying to foreign countries you must buy a return ticket before you leave the USA unless you are a citizen of that country too. These are only a few.

With that said, while all airplanes of US airlines has a US identity code next to the USA flag seen in the rear of every airplane (USA code starts with an N, other countries have different codes such as the DR start with HI, Haiti start with HT, etc) and an airplne has to comply with certain regulations to be able to be registered as a US airline; it doesn’t matter where the actual airplane in made. In US airlines you see Boeing airplanes which are made in the US, Embraer which are made in Brazil, Airbus which are made in Europe. Whwt matters is where the airline is registered to define its nationality. One thing you will notice though is that airplanes that belong to the US government many are Boeing because they are made in the USA.

The same is seen in other parts of the US government including at state, county and municipality government. Notice there isn’t a single police department that has a fleet of police cars/SUV’s that aren’t of an American car brand, usually Ford. I’m sure US police officers would not mind if a car or two in their fleet is a BMW or an Audi or perhaps a Lexus. It will not happen, at least in the USA. I don’t know if their is a law that requires all police vehicles to be American, but there probably is. In a country as big as the USA, for all police departments to have fleets of American cars, that is only achieved with a law of some sort.

Last edited by AntonioR; 02-16-2024 at 01:47 PM..
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Old 02-16-2024, 06:14 PM
 
13,442 posts, read 4,287,635 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
as we both know the jones act is an abject failure that has neither preserved the country's shipbuilding nor has it provided any sort of military benefit. worse, it has made us ports the province of foreign ships. if you need to see this as hating federal law, so be it. the reality is being federal law is not a sign of a successful or beneficial law.
false, you did not answer the question.
this, sir, was the only question.

Thanks for your opinion, again. If you came here to argue, you are in the wrong forum. Take a trip to D.C. You ask a question that you should know the answer and reject any response that doesn't fit your narrow narrative. What exactly you want to know. Are you buying a ship and operating it from Puerto Rico? We are assuming you are a U.S. Citizen. So why would you ask if the Jones Act would applies in Puerto Rico if you build a ship there or buy one or lease one.



Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
false, most countries have some form of cabotage but they do not have a jones act which is unusually restrictive for a free country. cabotage can take many forms, many wealthy countries are more liberal. some countries also provide direct subsidies to shipbuilders, in fact, all the major shipbuilding countries do this. jones act ships are not competitive globally and so are irrelevant. the same is true domestically, so jones act shipping is almost irrelevant outside the Mississippi and islands that have no choice. this is why trinidad supplies oil and gas to us territories rather than Texas. while it may be difficult to drop in the US due to san juan star's lobby, it does not affect other countries that do not fall under the control of congress nor do they have a jones act. have a nice day.
Again, that's your opinion and very 1 sided. Are you in the maritime business? Do you own a ship? Do you provide jobs to Americans? If the Jones Act is as bad as you say, that would affect the U.S. economy. It hasn't for over 100 years. Cabotage laws regulate domestic maritime transport, limiting foreign-owned vessels to enter a country's coastal waters. These laws protects a nation's shipping industry and encourage local growth.


A country's cabotage laws are designed primary to guarantee the participation of its citizens in their domestic trade. This is done to guarantee a strong national flag merchant marine for defense, employment, and general economic purpose.


It also extends rights and protection to seamen (people) that other countries doesn't offer. Not my opinion but the law. https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/jones_act


Last, We went over this but here it is again, other countries have Cabotage laws. You think the U.S. is strict. Try China, Russia, South Korea, Japan. Go take a ship over there and see how far you get in their ports.
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Old 02-18-2024, 10:41 AM
 
Location: The Mitten.
2,533 posts, read 3,099,533 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
The foreign dredge act requires ships be made in the us and made of us steel. The Jones Act requires ships between us ports also be us crews. If you could flag any ship then shipping would be a lot more competitive with more eligible supply. It's obviously very expensive to build a ship in the USA which is why there are so few ships built. Presumably it would be cheaper to build in pr but I've never heard of a Jones Act ship being built there which leads me to believe that either it would not be eligible or subsidies are only available to stateside builders.
The above smells like some kind of “sovereign citizen” word salad manure.
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