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Old 03-14-2010, 01:07 PM
 
43 posts, read 87,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
I wrote this earlier in this post:

Let's assume for one minute that a majority of Puerto Ricans on the island wanted independence for Puerto Rico. Now please, be realistic...how many of those persons would be willing to do the hard and necessary work of converting a United States territory into a republic?

You cannot build a nation on the shoulders of people who:

- have a disdain for hard work.

- believe that the government owes them the liberty from having to sacrifice for anything.

- have little interest in higher education.

In addition, what natural resource would the economy be based on? Can you name one? Would we have to resort to offshore banking and gambling? If we become a banana republic, do we hire illegal Dominicans and Hatians to pick the crop?

I'd go on, but I wont. BTW, this is coming from a man who is as BORICUA to the core as they come. I'm just not afraid to discuss reality. It is what it is.

Puerto Rican independence will require a movement of young people who do not fear hard work, sacrifice and higher learning. Without these pillars, talks of independence will be no more than just talk!

And again, what will the economy be based on? Toursim and...??? What is that "and?"

As another poster stated, Puert Rican independence is nothing more than a romanticized fantasy. Many questions have to be answered before this topic warants any sort of merritt.

Your only good point is that, the reality is that Puerto Ricans in some way has dugged their own hole,you speak that you boricua, but not to offend you by any means but remember that the educational system in PR is based on US education system. In other words, Puerto Ricos educational system is based on a colonial system, and PR always has been told that is too small and that has no natural resource, and you sound just as every PR out there, the reason why PR people is the way are now is because time and time politicians in PR has told them lies based on fear, and in PR people live life in fear of becoming a so call poor country. As I said before, PR does have good natural resource, and they still have plenty of land to create new agriculture. Puerto Rico, is one of the few places that export Rum,Tobacco, Sugar, copper,PR is the number one exporter of Yuca, Yame, and all those good stuff and something that the US love to posses PR has pockets of oil in and around the island, untouched. Puerto Rico also has one of the richest minerals of seal salt, untouched.

Did you know the company Platters(Peanut) wanted to use some of those sea salts for their new sea salt peanuts, and 7 years ago offered PR a cool one billion dollars to use PR sea salt for the next 10 years, but you know what happened why the negotiations halted? Since US were leaving vieques, Americans lobbied for new companies not to make business with PR while the vieques issue got resolved, and because of that Platters took their offer somewhere else. Also Puerto Rico, is one of the biggest exports of rum, and bacardi been number one rum seller world wide, however Puerto Rico was also the home of another RUM giant, and no its not DON Q, but Captain Morgan rum(Diageo), Unfurtinately, due to the political instability in PR and the parasite that is commonwealth, Captain Morgan rum will be moving out of PR by 2012. If PR was independent country, do you know that PR would have made 3 times what it makes in rum and the money would stood in PR. Imagine rum is a multi billion dollar company, the bad thing right now US intervenes in everything that is PR. And the people that make money of rum is not PR, but American shareholders.

Lets look at examples of countries or islands that have very little resources but yet are thriving. Singapore,Hong Kong, Tawain, Israel even if you take a look closer at United Arab Emirates, is a country that within 20 years will run out of oil(Main resource), yet with the funds they were and still making the country built tourist attractions. PR, receives funds from US every year, I know that corruption in PR is rampant and pocket some of those funds, but if we fight corruption. With those funds you can build places that can lure more tourism, you can built a hub just as singapore, in fact Panama has offered PR to use the canal at no cost for the first 10 years if they become independent. Puerto Rico is also in top 5 in the world in coconut distribution, did you know that within this year the European union will pass a bill to use coconut oil as an alternative to fuel, now imagine if PR was independent they can actually sell coconut oil and make billions of dollars just on that.

You told me to name you one resource that can bring business to the island, and i just name you a few. I have 28 more resources to go, but I opt. not to become a spammer in this site. The only point you made is that you do not think Puerto Ricans can run their own land, and have its own country. I made it clear that DR tourism is the number one in the caribbean, you still made a remark that DR is a poor country, yet their economy is the fastest growing economy in the caribean passing PR by large margin, in fact is the biggest economy in the caribbean. You probably going to say so why do Dominicans move to PR illegally, then Ill say Puerto Ricans move to US for a better life, Americans moves to Canada for better health care. Russians move to American for more economical freedom, and africans move to europe to open new businesses. Migration is part of our human nature, what happens in DR is not an isolated situation. Now if you consider yourself boricua, do you know the name of the Puerto Rican who is considered the father and first PR to fight for independence and freedom in Puerto Rico?

I only agree that the mindset of Puerto Ricans need to change, but I am sure that from you reading what I just wrote , you are smarter today then yesterday and don't take it personally, but education is the key to everything and its all a matter of education, you give PR the right tools and I can assure you that then can prosper and thrive, but if you give PR the guns, and drugs just as US do time after time do, then you going to have what is occurring now in PR. It is a society manipulated to the point that they even feel hatred amonghts our brothers of DR and Cuba. The same people who fought along side with PR againts spain for 2 centuries.
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Old 03-14-2010, 01:54 PM
 
43 posts, read 87,314 times
Reputation: 17
Correction:Imagine rum is a multi billion dollar industry*
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Old 03-14-2010, 02:33 PM
 
43 posts, read 87,314 times
Reputation: 17
As per the USDA(United States Department of Agriculture), PR ranks 5th among the US in Sugar production behind Floria, Louisiana, texas, and Hawaii. That is more then other US territories can produce combined, also were you aware that PR was once the 3rd largest coffee export in the world. Now due to US intervention, that number has changed drastically, but PR is 17 in top 20 of coffee production in the world. And about 25 coffee brands use PR coffee grains. I am just saying, who in the world told you that PR has no natural resources?I still got 66 to go.
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Old 03-14-2010, 04:34 PM
 
1,772 posts, read 4,075,616 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antillanosiempre View Post
As per the USDA(United States Department of Agriculture), PR ranks 5th among the US in Sugar production behind Floria, Louisiana, texas, and Hawaii. That is more then other US territories can produce combined, also were you aware that PR was once the 3rd largest coffee export in the world. Now due to US intervention, that number has changed drastically, but PR is 17 in top 20 of coffee production in the world. And about 25 coffee brands use PR coffee grains. I am just saying, who in the world told you that PR has no natural resources?I still got 66 to go.
Puerto Ricans won't pick coffee. You can't make a self-sustaining world leading economy picking beans for the going market rate. Central America and Asia will eat your lunch on the labor costs. I've already said my peace about the Dominican republic. The median welfare recipient in Mississippi has it better than the perma-indigent Dominicano. It's like a colleague of mine says: "Anywhere can be great when you got money". This doesn't mean the median aren't totally hosed. Which is what the Dominicans have in place. Illegal dominican immigration into Puerto Rico is huge and high visibility. So if the dominicans think US welfare via PR is better than the supposed land of milk and honey independent Dominican Republic, then somebody got sold a bridge.

PR is past its agricultural age, it's a microcosm of the mainland and as such it won't go back to being another central american agro-economy token "nation". PR is plagued with the same service economy woes as the mainland, but agriculture won't keep the island afloat. That's just as romantic as the very idea of independence.

This is all academic. Puerto Rico will never become independent for rather obvious pragmatic reasons. The impetus is not there, it's been pulling teeth to keep the PIP on the ballot; the have lost their ballot recognition TWICE in the last decade (failing to meet 3% of the total votes), that horse is dead. PR has matured over 100 years in territorial status and frankly, enough of its native population has established themselves in the States, which from a political-cultural perspective has sealed the place of Puerto Rico as a territory of the United States.

I don't really have a dog in that fight anymore, I attained my statehood by moving to the mainland, and despite our issues, I feel at home here. I don't long to go back like many who romantically view the island. And by my count with all the continuing erosion in the economy and the cost of living hikes PR will continue to be a great place to visit and a horrible place to live.

33% personal income tax rate above 50K, anti-business governmental structure, Hawaii cost of living for Cali, Colombia quality of life, a culture of anti-intellectualism and social disorder, poorly planned cities and non-existent private industry to support the tax base; I'll pass.
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Old 03-14-2010, 06:32 PM
 
43 posts, read 87,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
Puerto Ricans won't pick coffee. You can't make a self-sustaining world leading economy picking beans for the going market rate. Central America and Asia will eat your lunch on the labor costs. I've already said my peace about the Dominican republic. The median welfare recipient in Mississippi has it better than the perma-indigent Dominicano. It's like a colleague of mine says: "Anywhere can be great when you got money". This doesn't mean the median aren't totally hosed. Which is what the Dominicans have in place. Illegal dominican immigration into Puerto Rico is huge and high visibility. So if the dominicans think US welfare via PR is better than the supposed land of milk and honey independent Dominican Republic, then somebody got sold a bridge.

PR is past its agricultural age, it's a microcosm of the mainland and as such it won't go back to being another central american agro-economy token "nation". PR is plagued with the same service economy woes as the mainland, but agriculture won't keep the island afloat. That's just as romantic as the very idea of independence.

This is all academic. Puerto Rico will never become independent for rather obvious pragmatic reasons. The impetus is not there, it's been pulling teeth to keep the PIP on the ballot; the have lost their ballot recognition TWICE in the last decade (failing to meet 3% of the total votes), that horse is dead. PR has matured over 100 years in territorial status and frankly, enough of its native population has established themselves in the States, which from a political-cultural perspective has sealed the place of Puerto Rico as a territory of the United States.

I don't really have a dog in that fight anymore, I attained my statehood by moving to the mainland, and despite our issues, I feel at home here. I don't long to go back like many who romantically view the island. And by my count with all the continuing erosion in the economy and the cost of living hikes PR will continue to be a great place to visit and a horrible place to live.

33% personal income tax rate above 50K, anti-business governmental structure, Hawaii cost of living for Cali, Colombia quality of life, a culture of anti-intellectualism and social disorder, poorly planned cities and non-existent private industry to support the tax base; I'll pass.
If you think no one is paying attention to PR status, and is just an issue with PR. Few years ago when the NFL(National Football League) were on the verge to expand coverage to latinos, they considered opening an office in San Juan, PR. However, some top NFL officials decided not to consider PR due to its complex nature of commonwealth, and those officials just did not consider because statehood in PR would bring some of the limits the US has impose to companies in the island, and the NFL would be subject to it. So the NFL, instead opted to open an office in Mexico and expand its businesses, within the next 5 years or so mexico will be getting a new multi million dollar stadium to lure the expansion of the NFL in latin countries to other countries, and bring other events. The NFL, is a multi billion dollar machine, and they did not consider Puerto Rico with the US intervention and its complex structure that is commonwealth. Companies in PR are leaving by bunches, Americans are sponsoring petitions against statehood, and clearly in one of the insular cases, US clearly states that they do not have any intention into making PR a states and would only remain an unincorporated territory. If you think that PR cannot thrive as independent nation, then I dont know where you getting your information, but from what I know PR can be right in top with Singapore.

Also if you recall, the Montreal Expos played some games in PR not too long ago, Jeff Luria the owner of Expos tried to find suitors to buy the expos and remain in PR. However, Major League Baseball and the Expos did not find buyers in PR, not one person stepped up to the plate. Few years ago during the 2006 world basbeball classic, when Puerto Rico played against Dominican Republic, during the broadcast the announcer made a statement in which he commented to the televised audience that he read an article on Washington Post. That the Dominican baseball team, has fielded more Multi-Millionaires in the baseball team then that of Multi-Millionaires in the whole island.The other commentator proceeded by saying he was surprised since PR is part of the US.

They will be one point like I said before, independence will be force upon Puerto Ricans, if something cannot be done now. You can throw me the numbers that only certain amount people want PR independence, but the most important number that 3 american entities has lobbied and petition against statehood in PR in congress. And not one for Puerto Rico statehood, and dont even count the US council for PR statehood(Puerto Ricans posing as an american entity). In fact the tea-party organization does promote the self determination of PR, but same token they oppose Puerto Rico becoming the 51st state, that dubious honor is hold for Washington DC becoming the 51st state. The congress rep for North Carolina, Rep. David Rice is one 17 states who do not want to loose a senate seat if PR becomes a state. Nor they want to loose electoral votes if PR becomes 51st state. So you basically have about 17 states in the union who opposes statehood, im not saying all of congress opposes the idea of 51st but someone is bound to say enough is enough, my taxes should not be going to PR.

All saying, if you still consider PR your motherland or whatever the case might be, dont go online saying that independence would be bad for PR. Say something good about PR, go out there and spread the word even if your not an advocate of independence.
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Old 03-15-2010, 05:23 AM
 
Location: The North
5,279 posts, read 9,447,496 times
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Fact is if PR went independent it would suffer from a severe brain and investment drain for a decade or two before finally hitting bottom and implementing business friendly policies which could help it recover. The PR economy is already bloated with too high a tax structure for those not under the targeted favorable tax regimes and there is way too high a percentage of government workers. Those are not competitive points and those in power in PR today certainly would have no incentive to change until they got completely swept out of power and influence. Its romantic to want independence but wow that would be a unmitigated disaster, I can't even venture a guess as to what percentage of the population would leave for the US either before the independence was official or in the following years when things got bad.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:00 AM
 
43 posts, read 87,314 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willy702 View Post
Fact is if PR went independent it would suffer from a severe brain and investment drain for a decade or two before finally hitting bottom and implementing business friendly policies which could help it recover. The PR economy is already bloated with too high a tax structure for those not under the targeted favorable tax regimes and there is way too high a percentage of government workers. Those are not competitive points and those in power in PR today certainly would have no incentive to change until they got completely swept out of power and influence. Its romantic to want independence but wow that would be a unmitigated disaster, I can't even venture a guess as to what percentage of the population would leave for the US either before the independence was official or in the following years when things got bad.

Right now when PR becomes independent the fact it wont be because of the people in PR at this point the US has very little interest on what PR thinks, evidence has showed that US has no intentions of making PR a state. , it would do in part of the US. Keep in mind, and I am not sure if you are aware their is a provision out there in the event that US grants PR independence in which the US is willing to provided assistance for the next 20 years if become independent. This provision was drafted in 1986, when US gave independence to Micronesia, even now the US provides funds and military assistance to micronesia. This provision is similar to that of micronesia, and also has a bit of what Great Britain and Singapore drafted. People think that the US would hang PR out to dry, which is perhaps the biggest myth and also its the fear politicians has impose to individuals in the island. The US, as we speak has a economic plan if PR becomes independent but their are too many pharmaceutical companies in PR who is enjoying the commonwealth and the tax code, and continue the experimentation on Puerto Ricans. This status issue is more complex, and US has very little interest in the well being of PR. Even if PR does not become independent, dont someone thinks that US can convert PR into Hong Kong or at least Taiwan.
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Old 03-15-2010, 07:45 PM
 
2,880 posts, read 3,419,696 times
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Antillanosiempre asked:

<<<Now if you consider yourself boricua, do you know the name of the Puerto Rican who is considered the father and first PR to fight for independence and freedom in Puerto Rico?>>>

Right or wrong, my ungoogled answer is:

DR. RAMON EMITERIO BETANCES.

Questions:

Dr. Betances was half Puerto Rican. What was his other half?

Aside from Puerto Rican independence, what was his other Caribbeanesque dream?

Ay bendito mijo...lo que te espera!
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Old 03-15-2010, 08:09 PM
 
2,880 posts, read 3,419,696 times
Reputation: 4342
Quote:
Originally Posted by antillanosiempre View Post
As per the USDA(United States Department of Agriculture), PR ranks 5th among the US in Sugar production behind Floria, Louisiana, texas, and Hawaii. That is more then other US territories can produce combined, also were you aware that PR was once the 3rd largest coffee export in the world. Now due to US intervention, that number has changed drastically, but PR is 17 in top 20 of coffee production in the world. And about 25 coffee brands use PR coffee grains. I am just saying, who in the world told you that PR has no natural resources?I still got 66 to go.
Bro! This is great! I have not confirmed your numbers or stats. But let's assume for one minute that your numbers are accurate. Tell me bro, who is going to cut the sugar cane and pick the coffee?

As we all know, sugar and coffee production are physically demanding endevours. Cutting cane and picking coffee beans in 93 degree heat with 90% humidity is not something the average 20 year old Boricua reguettonero will quickly be willing to do. I could just hear it..."Chacho! Quien yo? Que va!!"

Now let's assume for one minute that your friendly neighborhood reguettonero decided to cut cane and pick coffee at Puerto Rico's minimum wage of $7.25.

Do you think Puerto Rico will be able to compete against other sugar/coffee producing countries who can do it at a fraction of the hourly cost??? Chacho...dejate deso!!!

The cutting and picking would only be done by illegals. Not exactly your fantasized dream of independence utopia.
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Old 03-15-2010, 09:20 PM
 
43 posts, read 87,314 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by chacho_keva View Post
Antillanosiempre asked:

<<<Now if you consider yourself boricua, do you know the name of the Puerto Rican who is considered the father and first PR to fight for independence and freedom in Puerto Rico?>>>

Right or wrong, my ungoogled answer is:

DR. RAMON EMITERIO BETANCES.

Questions:

Dr. Betances was half Puerto Rican. What was his other half?

Aside from Puerto Rican independence, what was his other Caribbeanesque dream?

Ay bendito mijo...lo que te espera!

You close, but even Ramon Bentances had to follow suit had to follow a model, I give you props for knowing someone of importance in our history the man I would follow his honor in Don Ramon. But the Father of Puerto Rican independence, well we can name one of the Caciques but modern Puerto Rico independence movement is Antonio Valerio de Bernabes.

He along side Simon Bolivar fought side by side, when Simon Bolivar made a visit to Jamaica to free cuba and Puerto Rico from spain, unfortunately, Simon Bolivar was not accepted in Jamaica, so Simon Bolivar had to go back to Gran Colombia to continue the battles. But even though Bolivar life was cut short he was able to a letter to Bernabes that he will be making another trip to the antilles and liberate PR and Cuba. But as many great leaders in the world, life finds a way to cut them short.

Antonio Valerios legacy is one that is hardly told(US educational system), but as you can see history has showed historically the region of antilles are bonded like no other region in the world. I still consider myself young in age, and learning about Antonio Valerio few years ago, it was very emotional and this was pre-google time. But you hear it from people who not even Puerto Rican, and they tell you and you given the tools to learn that PR history should give anyone statehood supporters, commonwealth and even independence supporters sense of pride. That despite countless time that US has impose something against the PR people, we as people find ways to learn our history and how beautiful to know that boriken was indeed a paradise, and not all has been forgotten. You can do some research now that you got the answer, this is no personal shot on you. But your more boricua today then what you was yesterday. If you need more assistance into finding history let me know, I got everything that is good of PR and not of that BS that the US had fed everyone. How you going to skip from 1493 to 1898? I think that the pr tourism website needs to redo its site, and let some BORICUAS run the site. Mind you is run by so call Puerto Ricans. But check it out, do some studies you seen bright but just dont go out there claim yourself boricua when you still have 400 years to study.
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