U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > U.S. Territories
 [Register]
U.S. Territories Puerto Rico, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, etc.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-09-2009, 10:45 PM
 
Location: Punta Gorda, Florida
171 posts, read 572,411 times
Reputation: 70

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricanroyalty View Post
listin why do many rican disagree becaues of all the things that has happean with the USA/Pr relationship. and of coures the foolish rican on the mainland not all but many, keep rican in prehistoric times, how better then puertorican would know what best for puertorican then puertoricans wow that simple math!!!, rican are just so busy with there lives to help there own, puertorico does not just to be independent from the USA it need to be independent from rican in the USA, many rican as I have studied and lived on the island for a few years are in a brianless state! I was born in the USA but I lived on the island for a few years,and I was a newjerseyrican that changed when I came back, see I would only agree if puertorico became a spainsh state and even then I would have to think about it, see puertorican can be some of the most unloyal people on the planet towards la patria, it has much bit as myself and my kid's will be tought to think for themself to help there own to think big and understand the state of there people, many pareant did not teach there kid's that or spainsh or they never even been to the island! ask any country in the world if they would trade there country to become a state of the USA. many will tell you to go to hell, what puertorican need see to think like puertorican and learn to use there own mindes to help solove it's people solutions have more nationalizm,wow rican are willing to give up there culture and language if it becomes a state that is if all the senators agree which I think they will not and make fools of rican when there are regected for statehood. the realest rican in PR are the independence people who are the reaLEST PEOPLE ON THE ISLAND,CONFUESSION IS NOT OF GOD WE DON'T KNOW FEAR!!! etc..and you can disagree with me I expect it!! many rican have weak minds as the USA hand something to do with that but we can not belame them for everthing as it is up to us to do it for ourselfs !!!,with me it is a dawn of a new era.. not all rican but many just love to vacation and visit family but if you ask them what would they do to help puertorico son uno *******s saying ohoo I live in the USA and have my own life then don't come PR does not need you rican have lose there historical prepective as many pareants have forgotten what the father came here for, it was always the plan to go back and help the island but rican became selfish and forgot who they are, we my be latinos all but boricuaS ARE the origannly hispanics in the northeast, as long as we have been in newyork we should own have of it,we need to go back 60 yrs ago when we had equity busniess, etc..it is a dawn of a new era not the same old stuff, I guess Iam turning back the hand of time when rican were real as hell Iam one of those..how can you even say that people have to be convince about independence, and then you say if it good it's more then good it would be great, I would rather die on myfeet then live on my kness !! the rest of the world would agree
My many years of experience in Puerto Rico have convinced me that Puerto Rico is not a state because the powers-to-be in the U.S. did not feel the elevation of a poor, third world, mulatto island to statehood was in their best interests. What the P.R.'s want or say means nothing!!! If the U.S. had wanted you to be a state, you would have been a state by now !!! Period!!!

Maybe things will be different now with Obama, although he may still be pissed about your love affair with Hillary.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-10-2009, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,416 times
Reputation: 105
Given the independence discussion and the comments made by Ricanroyalty and others. I have a simple question and please don't read into it too much.

I am puzzled at why such loyalty to Spanish? Spain enslaved Puerto Rico, and when US became the new owner they inherited an island that had no infrastructure, no educational system, and no self identity. While understanding that US was an occupier, they gave Puerto Rico so much. (Keep in mind that US did not specifically target PR to occupy it, but rather received it as a settlement after the Spanish-American war.) Currently Puerto Rico is on par with many developed nations. Puerto Ricans have unlimited possibilities, where the only limitation is their will to achieve things (this comes from someone who has experienced first hand limitations of a totalitarian government under which even most critical of PR would change their mind and turn around to call PR a paradise of opportunity). Taking into consideration all of the things Spain gave Puerto Rico and all the things that US gave Puerto Rico, which would you prefer support? (Of course I understand that PR would like to become independent, and I support this desire, but only if it is done in a planned and controled way.)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 08:09 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,497,581 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers View Post
Given the independence discussion and the comments made by Ricanroyalty and others. I have a simple question and please don't read into it too much.

I am puzzled at why such loyalty to Spanish? Spain enslaved Puerto Rico, and when US became the new owner they inherited an island that had no infrastructure, no educational system, and no self identity. While understanding that US was an occupier, they gave Puerto Rico so much. (Keep in mind that US did not specifically target PR to occupy it, but rather received it as a settlement after the Spanish-American war.) Currently Puerto Rico is on par with many developed nations. Puerto Ricans have unlimited possibilities, where the only limitation is their will to achieve things (this comes from someone who has experienced first hand limitations of a totalitarian government under which even most critical of PR would change their mind and turn around to call PR a paradise of opportunity). Taking into consideration all of the things Spain gave Puerto Rico and all the things that US gave Puerto Rico, which would you prefer support? (Of course I understand that PR would like to become independent, and I support this desire, but only if it is done in a planned and controled way.)
I agree with your points 100%. PR needs to worry about getting their house in order and not arging about statehood vs independence.
My wife's grandfater used to tell her stories about working on spanish plantations. the most vivid is that one day a worker was slacking off in the fields and the spaniard just cut off his head with a machete.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 02:25 PM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 12 days ago)
 
5,828 posts, read 8,596,765 times
Reputation: 4557
Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers View Post
Given the independence discussion and the comments made by Ricanroyalty and others. I have a simple question and please don't read into it too much.

I am puzzled at why such loyalty to Spanish? Spain enslaved Puerto Rico, and when US became the new owner they inherited an island that had no infrastructure, no educational system, and no self identity. While understanding that US was an occupier, they gave Puerto Rico so much. (Keep in mind that US did not specifically target PR to occupy it, but rather received it as a settlement after the Spanish-American war.) Currently Puerto Rico is on par with many developed nations. Puerto Ricans have unlimited possibilities, where the only limitation is their will to achieve things (this comes from someone who has experienced first hand limitations of a totalitarian government under which even most critical of PR would change their mind and turn around to call PR a paradise of opportunity). Taking into consideration all of the things Spain gave Puerto Rico and all the things that US gave Puerto Rico, which would you prefer support? (Of course I understand that PR would like to become independent, and I support this desire, but only if it is done in a planned and controled way.)
I'm not Puerto Rican, but I will say this.

Much of what Spain gave Puerto Rico (and the rest of Latin America) is intangible, while what the U.S. gave Puerto Rico is more materialistic. Some people value more non-materialistic things, such as identity, language, music, overall culture. Once you leave San Juan (even within the city) it becomes obvious that Puerto Rico is not a floating Florida or even a cultural extention of the U.S. It is a Hispanic country with a Hispanic culture, language, etc.; that just happens to be under U.S. control, that's it. That is something that Spain gave Puerto Rico (with added influences like African, Indigenous, American; but in the end, all of these influences are more of the icing on the Spanish cake). Then if we add the fact that Spain was ill treated herself (it didn't began to become developed until the 1960s - the same time PR was beginning to show signs of improvements as well, but under U.S. rule), then it really doesn't make sense to demonize Spain for not doing with Puerto Rico that which it didn't do to itself. You can't give what you don't have and Spain did not had a developed economy during the entire time PR (and the rest of Spanish America) was its colony.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Puerto Rico has been under U.S. rule for a little over 100 years. That comes on the heels of 400 years of direct Spanish rule. You can't erase 400 years of direct Spanish rule in a mere 100 years of U.S. rule, with the first half of those 100 years being characterized by imperialistic and down right abusive relationship between the island and the mainland. The economic improvement of PR is around 40 to 50 years old, in fact its wealth is even less than that time period.

These are things that needs to be kept in mind when discussing a subject such as this one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,497,581 times
Reputation: 2774
spain also gave PR endemic corruption and excessive bureaucracy. I read that ponce developed as a port, originally, to bypass spanish laws.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-11-2009, 09:18 PM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 12 days ago)
 
5,828 posts, read 8,596,765 times
Reputation: 4557
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
spain also gave PR endemic corruption and excessive bureaucracy. I read that ponce developed as a port, originally, to bypass spanish laws.
It is true that Puerto Ricans inherited from Spain a corrupt way of doing things, but I often wonder if the collective decision to form a corrupt society was perpetrated by the Spaniards or was simply done by the Puerto Rican themselves.

We would have to wonder who gave corruption to Jamaica, to Belize, to India, or perhaps even to Pakistan? Why did Singapore, the United States, and say Canada did not developed equal levels of corruption as those other places? Weren't they all part of the British empire?

So, if say Jamaica inherited its corruption from the British, why did the Americans not inherited equal levels of corruption from the British as well?

What I am trying to say is that while the source of corrupt ways is definitely in Europe (in PR's case in Spain), I do wonder if Puerto Ricans had a choice to develop a non-corrupt society and whether they simply decided to be corrupt and simply blame the Spaniards for it. Even under U.S. rule, Puerto Rican politics is very corrupt, perhaps more than in the individual states.

Is Spain truly to blame for that? And if so, why was the U.S. able to not become as corrupt as Jamaica or Pakistan, despite all of them evolving from the same "corrupt" european power, Britain?

I think the US is not as corrupt as other former British colonies because Americans made a choice to not develop an overly corrupt society and the same can explain (in the complete opposite) for why Puerto Rican society has been much more corrupt. Basically, I think Puerto Rican society is corrupt because it wants to be corrupt. And if that is true, then the true blame lies not in Europe, but on the island.

But, who knows. Perhaps the temptation to blame others for one's problems is a colonial legacy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 06:25 AM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,416 times
Reputation: 105
Antonio84; thank you for the informative reply. The discussion on the origins of corruption was very philosophical, and I enjoyed it very much. Regarding your remark about the 400 year long Spanish rule over PR. What you are saying is that PR went through the Helsinki Syndrome, and identified itself with its captor? Does this then imply that in 300 more years of US control, PR will start identifying itself with US? Also, you mentioned that the first 50 years of US presence in PR were very imperialistic. Was there a comparable period of Spain rule over PR? Surely there must have been. Perhaps 400 years is a long enough time to forget the cruelty of the past and focus on the injustice of the present. There are many facets of PR culture and society that I am still uncovering.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,497,581 times
Reputation: 2774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
We would have to wonder who gave corruption to Jamaica, to Belize, to India, or perhaps even to Pakistan? Why did Singapore, the United States, and say Canada did not developed equal levels of corruption as those other places? Weren't they all part of the British empire?
I can't answer for belize or Jamaica but India's bureaucracy and corruption predates the brits...that also includes Pakistan of course. I can't think of any Spanish colonies that didn't have a significant problem with it.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
I think the US is not as corrupt as other former British colonies because Americans made a choice to not develop an overly corrupt society and the same can explain (in the complete opposite) for why Puerto Rican society has been much more corrupt. Basically, I think Puerto Rican society is corrupt because it wants to be corrupt. And if that is true, then the true blame lies not in Europe, but on the island.
Americans chose their form of government. Since there was no gold, government essentially evolved on its in the US rather than being imposed by an imperial government. We all know what happened when britain finally did get around to imposing its will on the US. In contrast, PR was, from the outset, an outpost of the spanish government...particularly san juan. that said, there are plenty of corrupt municipalities in the US...Philadelphia comes to mind. Heck, the last corruption trial in PR involved Philadelphia. certainly it's not black and white, but I'd be very suprised if the spanish didn't have anything to do with it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 04:07 PM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 12 days ago)
 
5,828 posts, read 8,596,765 times
Reputation: 4557
Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers View Post
Regarding your remark about the 400 year long Spanish rule over PR. What you are saying is that PR went through the Helsinki Syndrome, and identified itself with its captor?
Yes and no. It is what you say, except that for the most part, Puerto Ricans are descendants of Spaniards, even if they are mixed with something else. I think I answer this question on my third answer in this post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers
Does this then imply that in 300 more years of US control, PR will start identifying itself with US?
It occurs gradually, and its already in effect. I equate this process to that which a child that is adopted goes through. At first they may feel disconnected with their new family, but as time passes they begin to identify with such family. Something similar, I believe, is occurring in Puerto Rico. Currently there is a minority of Puerto Ricans that truly feel more American than anything else and they identify fully with the U.S., with time that group will continue to grow as it has been growing since the U.S. took control in the late 1800s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers
Also, you mentioned that the first 50 years of US presence in PR were very imperialistic. Was there a comparable period of Spain rule over PR? Surely there must have been.
In the very beginning the Spanish were very imperialistic in Puerto Rico. Looking back at history, Puerto Rico was established as a colony of Spain when Ponce de Leon departed from the colony of Santo Domingo (today Dominican Republic) to establish a base in PR so it would be easier to monitor and protect the Spanish galleons from pirates as they that passed through the Mona Passage on their Spain-Santo Domingo and Santo Domingo-Spain voyages. As you probably know, the Mona Passage is the body of water that separates Puerto Rico from the Dominican Republic.

Then, as time passed, the importance of Puerto Rico for Spain dwindled as the colony of Santo Domingo also lost its luster once Spain found richer places to exploit raw materials such as in Mexico and in PerĂș, with Havana serving as the main transhipment point. The lack of activity lead towards the exploitation of the few gold deposits that once existed in PR and then turn to agriculture and that remained the main economic activity until the U.S. arrived.

However, going back to the time when Puerto Rico was settled by Ponce de Leon, at that time the island was inhabitted by Taino and Carib indians. This is where Spanish imperialism takes an interesting shift that differentiates it from American imperialism of the early 20th century. The Spanish imperialism of Puerto Rico was basically focused on the local indigenous population, which for the most part either died from disease, were worked to death, were exported to neighboring Santo Domingo to work in gold mines there and then died of exhaustion, or were assimilated and intermarried with the Spaniards. Since most Puerto Ricans have Spanish blood in them, even when its mixed with something else, the imperialistic attitude from Spain was not as harshly felt or opposed in PR in part due to most Puerto Ricans having Spanish blood themselves. In other words, the cultural values that eminated from Spain were the values of the Puerto Ricans as descendants from Spaniards, for the most part.

This is very different from what occurred under American Imperialism, when even to this day, most Puerto Ricans continue to have Spanish blood in them (again, even if mixed with something else), while most of the Americans (on the island and on the mainland) are not of Spanish ancestry. It becomes clear of the type of shock that the Puerto Rican population went through during the first half of U.S. rule as Americans, with their Anglo-Saxon and Protestant influenced values collided head on with the Puerto Ricans Hispanic/Latin and Catholic cultural values. These values manifested themselves in the difference in language, religious belief, overall culture. When the U.S. began to rule Puerto Rico, the U.S. had plans and even started to implement these plans to convert Puerto Ricans to the Prostestant faith, make them speak English, and dissasociate them from their Spanish heritage. The very blunt way the U.S. went in doing this created resentment and a backlash in much of the Puerto Rican population, to the degree that the American occupation of P.R. was not very popular. This lead to many protests, including one protest in Old San Juan when the U.S. authorities reacted by massacring pretty much all the young Puerto Ricans that were protesting their desire to be able to honor the Puerto Rican flag, since the only flag allowed in PR was the American flag; anyone hanging their Puerto Rican flag in their own home basically risked their freedom and even their own life.

With time the U.S. mellow down and began to respond to the Puerto Rican population's desires and with that, the relationship between the island and the mainland improved. The clearest sign of change was when the U.S. for the first time ever allowed Puerto Ricans to become their own governors, since before that only Americans were allowed to be governors because it was believed that Puerto Ricans were inferior to White Anglo-Saxon Protestant men and were incapable of ruling themselves, until they accepted WASP culture, belief, attitudes, etc.

So, to not make this any longer, yes, Spain went through its own imperialistic "moment" on the island, but it was not as harshly felt and as harshly opposed by the Puerto Rican population because they themselves were of Spanish ancestry. This contrasted with the Americans, who had nothing in common with the Puerto Ricans.


Last edited by AntonioR; 05-12-2009 at 04:22 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-12-2009, 04:20 PM
Status: "Enjoying the moment" (set 12 days ago)
 
5,828 posts, read 8,596,765 times
Reputation: 4557
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
I can't answer for belize or Jamaica but India's bureaucracy and corruption predates the brits...that also includes Pakistan of course. I can't think of any Spanish colonies that didn't have a significant problem with it.
I don't think there are any former Spanish colonies that were relatively corruption free. What is very clear is that once Spain managed to become developed, it was able to also develop her colonies. At least that's what has happened with Ceuta and the Canary Islands. In the past, those Spanish colonies were underdeveloped much like Puerto Rico was under Spanish rule, but today they are very developed and wealthy islands of Spain. I think the same would had happened to Puerto Rico had the U.S. never taken control in the late 1800s and PR would had remained a part of Spain to this day. This is also true of other colonies of other European powers. For example, Gibraltar and Hong Kong became wealthy enclaves as Britain became developed herself. The Netherland Antilles went through the same process, and the same occurred with the French Overseas Departments of Martinique and Guadeloupe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
Americans chose their form of government. Since there was no gold, government essentially evolved on its in the US rather than being imposed by an imperial government. We all know what happened when britain finally did get around to imposing its will on the US. In contrast, PR was, from the outset, an outpost of the spanish government...particularly san juan.
Yes and no. The American government evolved on its own once the U.S. became independent from Britain, up until that point what eventually became the U.S. were imposed by an imperial government. In this respect, the biggest difference between P.R. and the U.S. is that P.R. didn't got rid of its old colonial power until the 1800s to only become a defacto colony of another power, while the U.S. got rid of its colonial power a good 200 years prior to P.R. changing hands.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
that said, there are plenty of corrupt municipalities in the US...Philadelphia comes to mind. Heck, the last corruption trial in PR involved Philadelphia. certainly it's not black and white, but I'd be very suprised if the spanish didn't have anything to do with it.
For certain their is much corruption across the U.S. I think we all agree that corruption is much worst in Latin America (P.R. included) than state side, and its under that assumption that my previous comments on corruption were made.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > U.S. Territories
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top