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Old 05-13-2009, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,497,581 times
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I doubt very much spain would have been able to hold on to PR. It just wasn't an option. PR might have become independent or a Cuban satellite but remaining part of spain was extremely unlikely, IMO. Spain was just too weak. Also of interest is that PR has long served as an asylum. During the Bolvarian revolution, loyal and conservative spaniards/south americans fled to PR. Whites fled to PR from the dominican and cubans from castro.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antonio84 View Post
Yes and no. The American government evolved on its own once the U.S. became independent from Britain, up until that point what eventually became the U.S. were imposed by an imperial government.
that's not exactly true. sure, there were colonial laws but because the US had no gold, it became a haven for people fleeing the old world but wasn't of particular interest to the government. imperial rule in the US was weak and restrictive trade laws were widely ignored (thanks be to the dutch). In fact, John Hancock was one of the most powerful smugglers around, as were many of the people signing the declaration of Independence. Local government ran day to day affairs for years. It wasn't until the French and Indian War that Britain really began to get involved in colonial affairs. Interestingly, at the time the colonies had a well developed system of self government. In contrast, PR had always had strong spanish rule and never set up their own system of government (andas you noted, little was left of the indigenous population which was far from peaceful as it was. the caribs were harrassing and murdering the more peaceful tainos.
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:16 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
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Wow I missed alot on here and alot to address. Ineedanswers, I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the problems in PR. The island was transformed, BY THE USE, into basically a tax haven/loophole for American business, and tailored to be 100% dependent on the US for everything. So you completely dismiss the idea of PR becoming independent because they have inherent problems, but you are missing the bigger point that the inherent problems are DUE to the US occupation. The US stepped in, not with the intention of "helping" anyone, let's be real. PR was one of the "spoils of the war", and the US treated it as such. It was developed to be totally dependent on the US, and was in fact developed solely for the interests of American business. PR had an extensive train system, until the US stepped in, shut it all down and dismantled it, and created the car culture that exists today...public transportation is virtually nonexistant for a tiny island with a large population. American businesses bought out much of the landlowners (forcefully and otherwise), and set up shop to serve their own interests, not PRs or the community's. Much of PRs business and commerce was also bought out decades ago, for the same reasons. So what happens when all of your assets are taken away from you, and all business, legal, and government deciions are made for your owner? Does this lend itself to "getting your own house inorder?" How exactly can you when you neither own or control "your house"?
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:25 PM
 
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Furthermore, all of that money generated in PR by American business goes where? BACK TO THE US IN THE FORM OF TAX FREE PROFITS. It in no way benefits the local population, and was never meant to for that matter. So what you have is an Imperialist country reaping the spoils of war, and setting up essentially a giant sham of a corporate welfare state, where American companies dominate the landscape, suck all the money out of the island and send it back to the US. And then you have the US, which is enabling and promoting this nonsense of an economy, by subsidizing the entire operation, PLUS providing MORE profits to these American companies by flooding the island with entitlement programs (food stamps, welfare, medicaid/medicare payments, social security, etc.) Guess where ALL, as in ALL of that government money is spent? ALL ON AMERICAN PRODUCTS BY AMERICAN COMPANIES that is sucked out again to their US corporate offices. You talk about getting PR's house in order, and throw out "corruption"....please..tell me what country does not suffer from corruption, and for that matter, the US is probably the world leader on corruption, just from the sheer power it weilds and the money involved..so if PR's owner is the corruptest guy on the block...how can PR fix itself exactly? It has no control! Until PR wrestles back control of itself, can make its own laws for the benefit of itself, can govern itself (and not the farce that is today), and can have a PR owned economy based on local businesses, and not just a corporate welfare sham of an economy, things will NEVER change. PR has the brainpower, infrastucture, skill set, and ability to be successful as an independent country, but it can never happen unless the rules change and PR can actually make decisions to move towards independence and self-rule. Until the boss (the US) changes the rules and gives PR the power to change its economy to one that actually benefits PR instead of solely the US, PR will remain in this state forever.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,416 times
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SobroGuy, welcome to the 21'st century. American Corporations own most of the world, and that is just a fact. Globalization brought the end of "main-street" and the small farmer initiatives. This happened in PR, and in each of the 50 US states. Clearly these corporations have only their profits as the only morality, otherwise, our economy would not be in the mess that it is now. Walmart and alike forced most jobs to Asia. IT sector outsourced its workforce or setup show in India and other places. Jobs that are being created are mostly in the service sector.

I do agree with you that PR has been dealt a crappy hand of cards. Pointing fingers and looking for blame will not make the cards change their face.
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Old 05-16-2009, 09:36 PM
 
Location: OKC
5,426 posts, read 5,868,960 times
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Almost all of these companies are global, owned by stockholders across the world, with headquarters in several continents. The American bashfest is trendy, but not accurate.
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:46 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
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InneedofAnswers, while I do agree that corporations now own everything and dominate..the difference between every other country where corporations dominate and PR is that PR's sole purpose was to service US corporations. Period. There IS no other state that was developed solely for this purpose, nor country. PR's ONLY purpose is a tax shelter/scam for US Corporations, and the US transformed the entire economy for that purpose. As a result, what you see is a complete welfare culture, one in which works solely to make the US rich, and as a reward is given lots of government handouts to spend on (Guess what!) US products, further enriching US corporations. Now tell me how is that the same as everywhere else or NOT unique to the island. That is not an economy, it is a sham.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,497,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
The island was transformed, BY THE USE, into basically a tax haven/loophole for American business, and tailored to be 100% dependent on the US for everything.
while doubtless that was a side "benefit" for the US, it was indeed a way to improve PR (misguided or not). those jobs woudl simply have moved overseas anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
PR had an extensive train system, until the US stepped in, shut it all down and dismantled it, and created the car culture that exists today...public transportation is virtually nonexistant for a tiny island with a large population.
as was done in most of the US so there's no reason to believe the US ahd any ulterior motives here. Also, I don't know that the system was extensive at all, it seems there was only one major train line to ponce. I'd wager it wasn't dismantled to make PR more dependent but as a result of the rampant development that was aided by US transfer payments and the separation of income from production (of any kind)...read: government jobs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
American businesses bought out much of the landlowners (forcefully and otherwise), and set up shop to serve their own interests, not PRs or the community's. Much of PRs business and commerce was also bought out decades ago, for the same reasons. So what happens when all of your assets are taken away from you, and all business, legal, and government deciions are made for your owner? Does this lend itself to "getting your own house inorder?" How exactly can you when you neither own or control "your house"?
perhaps you are overly nationalistic. America's biggest beers are owned by European companies. A mexican giant owns PR cement production and Spain still has significant interests in PR. PR controls enough of its own house, its a cop out to blame all the budget woes on the US.
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Old 05-18-2009, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,497,581 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
"corruption"....please..tell me what country does not suffer from corruption, and for that matter, the US is probably the world leader on corruption, just from the sheer power it weilds and the money involved..so if PR's owner is the corruptest guy on the block...how can PR fix itself exactly? It has no control! Until PR wrestles back control of itself, can make its own laws for the benefit of itself, can govern itself (and not the farce that is today), and can have a PR owned economy based on local businesses, and not just a corporate welfare sham of an economy, things will NEVER change. PR has the brainpower, infrastucture, skill set, and ability to be successful as an independent country, but it can never happen unless the rules change and PR can actually make decisions to move towards independence and self-rule. Until the boss (the US) changes the rules and gives PR the power to change its economy to one that actually benefits PR instead of solely the US, PR will remain in this state forever.
yeah I don't know about all this. in some dream world maybe PR can produce everything it needs but in reality it's a small island and will always need to trade. PR can't even produce enough coffee to satiate it's own demand. why? not because of American business interests but because they can't eget enough people to work the fields because between government jobs and welfare there isn't any motivation. and what's stopping Don Q from pomoting state side? that's not to say the US doesn't have a hand in hurting PR, but it's a a deflection to say it's all the US' fault.
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:55 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
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PMAN my comments to you: 1-I agree it was a "way" to improve the situation on the surface, but the real reason was to create a new market for American goods and products. Period. 2-There is reason to believe American car companies purposely did that because that is what they did! Retooling Detroit: Fixing a Failure of Finance or Imagination? by Edward Bernton - The Globalist here is an excerpt: "It is indeed ironic that General Motors is often accused of sabotaging the street car infrastructure built in the Western United States before the 1950s in order to sell its buses. An April 9, 1947 anti-trust ruling by the 7th Circuit Court found nine corporations guilty of conspiring to monopolize interstate commerce. With financing procured from General Motors, Firestone, and Standard Oil, these corporations were accused of buying and dismantling hundreds of private street car companies, replacing them with bus lines supplied, serviced, and fueled by the above investors." Puerto Rico was a victim of this as well as they DID have an extensive train system that was subsequently bought out by Ford and dismantled to make people by their cars.
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Old 05-19-2009, 12:00 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
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Comment 3: I am not overly nationalistic...but you are making false comparisons. Sure America's biggest beers are owned by Europeans..that's great...but you are not understanding the problem with PR. It is not 1 industry that is owned by a foreign entity..it is ALL industries owned by foreign entities, and the US is BY FAR the largest and growing still. If PR's beer industry was owned by Japan...nobody would care because that is not a driver of the SOLE driver of the economy, furthermore, the US makes its own policies and tax regulations to ensure that SOME financial profit STAYS in the US, whereas PR HAS NO SUCH POWER. All money is sucked out. Period. You fail to realize that PR does NOT OWN THE HOUSE! The house is owned by the US...how then can PR "get its house in order." It is not their house, the US evicted them long ago and now are just squatters.
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