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Old 05-21-2009, 11:37 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,441,391 times
Reputation: 4168

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As I stated before, what if Americans hundreds of years ago asked the same question : "We agree America should be free of the tyranny, but what if the experiment fails? Are we willing to live with the consequences?" What is the answer was NO!!!! And the only way for us to find out whether PR can be a big fish is if it TRIES. Unfortunately what you are missing (as usual) is that the US is NOT providing financial support to PR. PR is merely a tax-loophole economy, where American corporations open up for cheap labor, sheltered profits, and a completely dependent population that has no choice but to spend all of their money on US products (further enriching the US corps). But wait! Surely all the welfare and government transfers (like welfare, food stamps, social security, etc) count as financial support. Yes.. ON THE SURFACE. The reality? All of those wonderful government funds are spent where? ALL ON AMERICAN PRODUCTS...what does that mean? It is just another way for the US to transfer MORE money to American Corporations on the island via these government programs. It is all a sham...the US is the only game in town...the government welfare and funds are actually NOT for the benefit of the people, it is for the benefit of the US Corporations...there is nowhere else to spend that money. So no, the reality is the US does not financially support ANYONE other than itself (aka the US Corporations). The tax loopholes, and government welfare are all shams that go right into the pockets of the corporations. Believe it. So I ask again, how exactly can PR move forward and build up economic strength when 1-It has no control of its own house, 2-The US controls its economy, 3-The US Corporations will crush any remote competition on the island, 4-ALL money spent (90 cents of every dollar) goes right to US Corporations directly or indirectly. leaving NOTHING for the local economy at all. So please tell us how PR can do anything to change its fate...we would all like to know.
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Old 05-21-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,489,198 times
Reputation: 2774
It sound slike you are trying to win people over to your cause rather than have an open debate. I don't buy into all your accusations of american products, economy, etc. It just doesn't jibe with reality though it's a commonplace theme in latin america used to demonize the US. the Puerto Rican government sets a budget every year and has its own tax rates. Obviously it has control over these things. I tend to respect Fortuno's plan to lay off 30k public workers, raise taxes, and reform government is a good start. the PPP seems like a good bill if for no other reason than the teachers' union is screaming bloody murder (which means it must mean real change). PR already implemented 401k's for public employees AFAIK. that's alsoa positive. there's talk of reforming the permit process, they are looking at expanding public transit, and the cafina bond rating was recently upgraded. The Ponceno port is being upgraded.

CaribbeanBusinessPR.com
CaribbeanBusinessPR.com
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Old 05-21-2009, 02:07 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,441,391 times
Reputation: 4168
I don't demonize, I am just aware of the reality of PR. It was never meant to function as independent, it was never meant to be equal, it's sole purpose was A: A spoile of war and B: To be developed solely as a market fro American products, and a cheap source of labor for American Corporations. It was only later that the true exploitation of the island happened and became the new "economy" via tax loopholes and government transfers (welfare, food stamps, etc). Hey didn't you hear about Bloomberg wanting more foodstamps for NYC resident...why would he want that? Because it increasing spending in the city and help boost the economy. Same applies for PR, except the spending is not local, it all goes to US companies and back to the mainland. Very simple concept here. I do not doubt at all that the PROPOSED changes by the new administration are great steps....nobody does. But what is the inevitable result? Even if he gets EVERYTHING he wants and place PR on whatever path you believe is the right one to a "better economy", in 4 or 8 years, a new administration comes into power from one of the other parties (remember there are the statehood/commonwealth/independent) and reverse everything the prior administration did...and that cycle goes on and on. Which is why until a decision is made, NOTHING changes. Everything comes back to PR being in the limbo non-decision of "commonwealth"..until that changes...nothing ever will.
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Old 05-21-2009, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,052 times
Reputation: 105
SobroGuy, you mean that PR is funding the border partrols, parks, and all such systems out of its own packet? Do you also mean to say that PR is getting no support for Medicare, etc.
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Old 05-21-2009, 09:39 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,052 times
Reputation: 105
I looked around for some statistics on how much of the federal money is getting back to PR, and found this:

CaribbeanBusinessPR.com

Don't forget that many university programs in PR are funded by the money from NSF, NIH, NASA, etc. (all taxes payed by someone).

Here is another document from 2002 with federal aid to PR.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/fas02.pdf

Since PR is not paying a federal tax, it is still getting a pretty good return from US
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:10 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,441,391 times
Reputation: 4168
Inneedofanswers...all of that "funding", medicare, border patrols, and systems, etc, go NOT for the benefit of PR people, but for ensuring a stable "safe" haven for the American Corporations. All that funding goes into the pockets of American Corporations, since there is nothing else to buy and everything is US owned. I see that you are still not understanding the very simple concept that PR gets NO benefit with the US, except of course the US Passport and ability to LEAVE PR....if you can call that a benefit. PR does not own itself or in fact govern itself any more than you do when you live at home with your parents. Any improvements you make to your basement apt at your parents home are great, but at the end of the day it's your parents house, not yours, and although they GAVE you the money to spend, you are spending it on improvements to THEIR house, not yours. This is a very simple concept, but you keep missing it.
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Old 05-22-2009, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Philly
10,029 posts, read 14,489,198 times
Reputation: 2774
yeah, I don't know, not seeing it sobro. That's not that I think there's no truth to your statements, just that you've taken the ideas to the extreme. you could say all the same thing about the US. Of course the US will dominate the market, it's an enormous country. I don't see other carribean islands dominating the world markets. they produce some agricultural products, banking, and a lot of tourism. the cement plant by my wife's hometown was bought Cemex, a MExican conglomerate that's been snapping up US property as well, such like Bimbo bakeries. Banco Popular is spanish (BBVA), Banco Santander recently bought a local Philly bank. Sure, the US tried to use tax incentives to develop the PR economy but they do that stuff all the time in the US. In PA they have Keystone Oportunity Zones. it creates certain areas that are more desirable than others but never solves the fundamental economic problems. I think we may all remember Dubai World Ports. The US was the world's economic power for nearly a century, that's changing as they become more of Banana Republic but that's a major reason they dominate, though they do frequently push for policies hat benefit their own corporations...but that's not specific to PR either.

It also seems like PR does have control over a lot of things as evidenced by the ideas Fortuno ispushing for.
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:56 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,441,391 times
Reputation: 4168
Pman at the end of the day it really comes down to this: PR gets LOTS of money from the US government in the form of subsidies for the population (food stamps, welfare, etc), but 90% of that money is spent on US Products directly or indirectly, which goes directly back to the US Corporations. Is that beneficial to PR, its economy, or the people? No. PR gets to make laws and "govern" itself, but the reality is it cannot make any laws that go against the over riding US law, nor can it govern itself by just following whatever the US policies are and whatever the US's best interests are. If you were "independent" but all your decisions were ultimately for the benefit of your parents, is that being independent? Is that benefiting you? Is that in your best interest? And therein lies the problem..."self-governing" is a lie, as it is self-governing only as much as it stays within the interests of the US. Until PR decides statehood or independence, ultimately nothing will change..which is why NOTHING IS CHANGING, and PR continues to fall behind, year after year, decade after decade.
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:21 PM
 
Location: Centro Tejas
543 posts, read 893,796 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by J double R View Post
would PR becoming a state effectively nullify the holier-than-thou cockiness of the "proud to be rican" types?

Personally, I say let em be on their own, though it would be nice to tell the next one i hear ranting, "shut up.. you're just another american now."
Not really. Texans are still proud of their culture and heritage. How many Texas flags you see everywhere?! A lot more than Puerto Rico flags!

If PR becomes a state (I really hope so) there won't be any differences. Puerto Rico looks more like a state than an independent country. I lived there for over 18 years!
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Old 07-02-2009, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Centro Tejas
543 posts, read 893,796 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by InNeedOfAnswers View Post
I looked around for some statistics on how much of the federal money is getting back to PR, and found this:

CaribbeanBusinessPR.com

Don't forget that many university programs in PR are funded by the money from NSF, NIH, NASA, etc. (all taxes payed by someone).

Here is another document from 2002 with federal aid to PR.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2003pubs/fas02.pdf

Since PR is not paying a federal tax, it is still getting a pretty good return from US
Then, why people from PR have FICA S. security, and Medicare deductions from their paychecks?!

Those are federal taxes, in case you didn't know.
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