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Old 04-16-2009, 12:56 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
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You best believe that PR is watching very closely what is happening with the changing relationship with Cuba and the USA. Obama is pursuing a more open policy with Cuba, and Cuba is likely to be a MAJOR player for US travels, which currently make up 70% of tourists to PR. Cuba is ALREADY a major Global player in the tourism industry, with 60,000 rooms, and 11 tourism regions throughout the country, while PR has just 13,000 rooms (same number for the past 10 years!), and the Dominican Republic has 61,000. What does this mean for PR since it is heavily reliant on American Tourism? It means PR will likely lose SIGNIFICANT American tourism market share to Cuba, as the pent up demand to visit Cuba is quite high. This will devastate PR economically moreso than probably anything ever has before it. But something else that is just as devastating but not quantified is this: There are significant numbers of Cubans in PR, that are typically very educated, professionals, and business owners, MANY of whom have expressed a GREAT interest in LEAVING PR to go back to Cuba not only to reclaim their homes but to rebuild the country and generate wealth. There are also many Puerto Rican businessmen and entrepreneurs who also have expressed interest in moving Cuba for the same reasons (myself included): immense opportunities and potential. This huge professional, business, and wealth migration, coupled with a significant drop in Tourism (and the accompanying massive loss of revenue/jobs) might be too big of a burden to bare, and ultimately isolate PR as a tertiary tourism market, and unlivable country.
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:30 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,682,890 times
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Yet another reason why PR should not be a country. Either maintain the status quo or, preferably, stimulate business interest by making PR a full-fledged 51st state.
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Old 04-16-2009, 01:46 PM
 
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NO...the reason PR is in the state it is in is precisely due to the status quo, or rather the nonstop political fighting about whether it should be a state, commonwealth, or independent. All of the factions have corrupted the political and economic landscape, with every faction trying to gain power to impose their will instead of what is actually best for the country and moving it forward. The status quo is a nonchoice, and the worst "choice" to make as it maintains PR in limbo. Independence is the only choice. Why? Let's put it this way. Do you believe it is better for "normal", healthy kids to move to the next stage of their lives (adulthood) by getting a job, moving out, starting their own families, or just becoming self-sufficient and independent, and all the ups/downs/risks/excitement/rewards/struggles of being on their own? Or do you believe it is better for kids to stay living at home under Mom and Dad's roof, and although they have LOTS of security and some independence, always rely on their mom and dad for everything and are never able to be independent and take care of themselves in any real way? This is the decision MUST make, there are benefits to both, but we have seen what happens when you stay living in Mom and Dad's (The US's), which is why PR continues to struggle and fall further and further behind. Until they make the changes to be self-sufficient, and not dependant on Mom and Dad (although they still visit and love eachother, and help eachother as needed), PR will always have the same problems. Independance is the only true answer. Can you imagine if all the Bill Gates/Bloombergs/Dells etc were just homebodies that prefered watching tv and living off mom and dad rather than the independant thinkers and doers that they were? Where would we be today as a society? Better off? I would say no. PR must become independent, it is not an easy process, it is painful, but in the end, wasn't it worth struggling with your first job and your first crappy apt, making ends meet with little money? The payoff is there...PR needs the courage and leadership to make it happen.
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Old 04-16-2009, 02:43 PM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,682,890 times
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Independence is a huge experiment. We really don't know whether the results would be positive, negative, or if things would stay the same. My guess is as good as yours, but I'll tell you my guess: negative results.

From where is the motivation to declare independence coming? I'll tell you. From a tiny faction of people. The overwhelming majority of Puerto Ricans vote AGAINST the PIP. The mainland US is against independence as well.

So, using your analogy, neither mom/dad (mainland US) nor the young person living at home (Puerto Rico) want to move out (independence)! Good luck actually getting it to happen when neither side is interested in seeing it happen.

Do you even follow politics on the island? I'm not trying to be rude, but your chants of ¬°LIBERTAD YA! are pretty typical of Newyoricans who are always talking about how much better things are in Puerto Rico than on the mainland, and about how "gringos" shouldn't mess with the island. Knowing you, you do NOT espouse those beliefs, but I must say, the people that espouse them are your fellow supporters of independence.

We could very well agree to disagree, but you and I both know that
a) independence is extremely risky and supported by a tiny minority of Puerto Ricans
b) statehood involves almost no risk and is supported by very large number of Puerto Ricans

..which is the better choice? Your symbolism is interesting, but informed voters are willing to look through feel good rhetoric to acknowledge economic realities.

Last edited by Marlin331; 04-16-2009 at 03:40 PM..
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Old 04-16-2009, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
4,476 posts, read 8,633,789 times
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I totally agree with crisp444. I like the way PR is right now. I do not care about PR as much because I live in the states. However it is a very bad idea for PR to become independent why? PR is doing good not perferct but good financially because of the US. Let's face it. If PR would be independent PR would have another currency instead of Dollars, which more than likely the currency will be less than the US. I do not want it to become a state due to various reasons. When Puerto Rico compete in the olympics or for miss universe, PR will no longer be representing PR, PR will be representing USA. Also, PR will be overcrowded because it is a tiny island. So that is why I like it as it is now.

Not intending to offend anybody just stating the way I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
Independence is a huge experiment. We really don't know whether the results would be positive, negative, or if things would stay the same. My guess is as good as yours, but I'll tell you my guess: negative results.

From where is the motivation to declare independence coming? I'll tell you. From a tiny faction of people. The overwhelming majority of Puerto Ricans vote AGAINST the PIP. The mainland US is against independence as well.

So, using your analogy, neither mom/dad (mainland US) nor the young person living at home (Puerto Rico) want to move out (independence)! Good luck actually getting it to happen when neither side is interested in seeing it happen.

Do you even follow politics on the island? I'm not trying to be rude, but your chants of ¬°LIBERTAD YA! are pretty typical of Newyoricans who are always talking about how much better things are in Puerto Rico than on the mainland, and about how "gringos" shouldn't mess with the island. Knowing you, you do NOT espouse those beliefs, but I must say, the people that espouse them are your fellow supporters of independence.

We could very well agree to disagree, but you and I both know that
a) independence is extremely risky and supported by a tiny minority of Puerto Ricans
b) statehood involves almost no risk and is supported by very large number of Puerto Ricans

..which is the better choice? Your symbolism is interesting, but informed voters are willing to look through feel good rhetoric to acknowledge economic realities.
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Old 04-16-2009, 07:31 PM
 
Location: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma
657 posts, read 1,448,989 times
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would PR becoming a state effectively nullify the holier-than-thou cockiness of the "proud to be rican" types?

Personally, I say let em be on their own, though it would be nice to tell the next one i hear ranting, "shut up.. you're just another american now."
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:26 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
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Crispy..it is FEAR that is keeping PR from moving forward and independance...and not anything else. If children are raised to be totally dependant on mommy and daddy for everything, and the parents WANT you to be dependant on them for everything, what do you think the result will be? The parents want the kids to stay living at home, and the kids are afriad to be on their own...is this a healthy relationship? Is this what is best for the child? I would say NO! Furthermore, let's take it a step further. Crispy, by your moving out of your home and going away to school you are taking steps to do what? Move back in to your parents home and live there forever off of them? Or are you trying to establish yourself as independent and not depending on your parents? But wait...there are risks involved in doing that and its a "huge experiment"...the results may be good or bad! You may fail miserably, become a crack addict, be homeless, turn to a horrible life of crime, or even die from suicide...OR you may succeed, and change the world by discovering a new vaccine for a deadly disease, or screate world peace, or become the President of the US (Obama did..what if he never tried?!)....but you will never know UNLESS YOU TRY! And that is the point....if PR never tries to become independent...we will never know its full potential. Maybe it will fall flat on its face, or maybe like the beauty-challenged Scottish Lady on British American Idol, maybe everyone is PREJUDGING based on a host of reasons, and the reality is...PR will sing beautifully (aka be a strong country). How will we ever know UNLESS WE TRY. Independence is the only answer, and although there are only 5% of people on the island who believe it can be a reality, there were .00000001% of people in the world who thought the world was NOT flat too..and where would we all be unless we had people with the courage to TRY. THAT is what is at stake here. Independence is the only option to move PR forward.
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Old 04-17-2009, 08:43 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,447,769 times
Reputation: 4168
You also touched on whether I know the politics and "economic realities"...so let me briefly inform you about what independence means for PR. Firstly, it does NOT mean PR is shunned by the US, cut off from all support, military protection, the currency is removed, passports revoked, US companies close down, and the island becomes isolated and alone. That is what the statehood people would have you believe, and keep people scared (and maintains them in power). The reality of an Independent PR is not too dissimilar to what PR is TODAY: the US currency would still be used, Dual Citizenship/free movement, all Governmental Institutions and laws would remain largely in tact, military protection, and US investment and business would continue. The difference? First and Foremost, PR would be able to CHOOSE FOR ITSELF how it wants to do business, and ensure that whatever it chooses benefits PR 100% and not just the US. Secondly, PR would be able to negotiate trade agreements with any country on its own FOR ITS OWN BENEFIT instead of the US imposing the rules that benefits the US. Thirdly, foreign business (like US companies) would still have advantages to doing business in PR, and moreso, however the profits would not ONLY be shipped back to the US, but a portion would remain on the island to benefit PR, as it does in every other independent country EXCEPT for PR. Fourthly, PR would have a more equitable relationship with US, its largest trading partner by far, instead of SERVING the US, so that PR can also share in the wealth building and generation, instead of subsisting on a "minimum wage" lifestyle. These are but a few examples of what PR would look like...not too different than today, but FAR MORE EQUITABLE to PR, and PR would have the ability to make its own laws, negoitate unilaterally with other countries to expand PR to a global player. The infrastructure is there, the US would support independence, as a wealthier PR would serve the US better (we would have more money to consume US products!), the brainpower is in PR, but the ingrained culture of fear is powerful. It is that fear of the unknown that is preventing PR from moving forward.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Paramus, NJ
502 posts, read 1,282,571 times
Reputation: 207
I like to see PR become independent one day. =_= I always saw it as its own country with its own people. I was kind of horrified to learn back in primary school days to see that it had a status quo.

I pretty much agree with what SobroGuy says.
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Old 04-17-2009, 11:56 AM
 
3,368 posts, read 10,682,890 times
Reputation: 1679
I must say that your answer to the PR independence question was excellent. Most of the responses I hear are pure feel good rhetoric crap but I enjoyed reading your reasons because you did address economics. I disagree with you (I am 100% OK with status quo, as are most of my Puerto Rican friends, but I will stand behind statehood if the opportunity arises) but I respect your opinion. You think people should take risks even when they have a high chance of failure and even if they do not want to take risks. I, on the other hand, only would encourage those who WANT to take a risk to do it, and only if they think there is a reasonable chance of success. Not everyone needs to strive for excellence. If people are happy with the status quo, so be it. I see no problem with playing it safe.

If I were an American colonist in 1776 with no problems with Britain, I would never have supported American independence. If I were in Cuba in 1898 and had no problem with Spain and how it dealt with its territories, I would not have supported Cuban independence. Call that a very anti-American attitude distinct from the many people in the New World, but I'm the kind of person who says that "if it ain't broke (and you have no desire to fix it), don't fix it." I'd rather do nothing than do something I neither want to do nor think it will result in anything positive.

You can't even begin to dream about Puerto Rican independence until you actually convince people that it is good for the island. Right now, only a tiny minority of people actually believe it. If you can convince people that there is a reasonably chance of things improving after independence, maybe you can get them to WANT independence. Until then, it's all symbolism with no bite.
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