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Old 05-14-2009, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Scranton
1,384 posts, read 2,801,120 times
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Up until the 1950's, there was a culture of hard work in Puerto Rico, even thought there was more poverty at the time. But, over the last 60 years, Puerto Rico has transformed itself into a welfare state, where people look to the government for help. People living in public housing, getting monthly welfare checks, not having bills, either because electricity and water is subsidized or because they just steal it. They don't have any intentions of leaving all of that behind.

And here comes the dog chasing its tail. The pro-statehood party (PNP) tells people that statehood will bring more government benefits and increases in welfare spending to Puerto Rico, while allowing Puertorricans to keep their language and culture. On the other hand, Congress will not grant statehood to Puerto Rico while more than 50% of the population relies on government assistance and will probably insist that English be used as a primary language.

For Puerto Rico to become a state, it must decrease significantly the number of people on welfare (a core constituency of the PNP). If the PNP pushes for that, it may drive those welfare recipients to the PPD, who support the status quo.
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Old 05-15-2009, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
32 posts, read 96,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
while more than 50% of the population relies on government assistance and will probably insist that English be used as a primary language.
That's totally incorrect. I think that the number has to be less than 20%.
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:47 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,446,121 times
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I am not entirely sure why such accolades are bestowed upon hindsight. Because he can convey his thoughts on an above 8th grade level? Uses reasonably correct grammar and few run-on sentences? He speaks of the problems of PR just like everyone else..he just likes using fancier words because people are mesmorized and thus assume "he knows what he is talking about." However he ignores the same fundamental problem that everyone else does...PR cannot get its "house" in order no matter what gimmicks it tries, because at the end of the day, PRs, and PR, do not "own the house." In fact, they were essentially evicted from the house a long time ago and are now just squatters. What does that mean? Well AMERICAN CORPORATIONS own the overwhelming majority of land (and of course everything that sits on that land, like buildings) on the island, AMERICAN CORPORATIONS own the overwhelming majority of business on the island so no matter where you shop/what you buy/consume, all the money/profits/benefits go back to AMERICAN CORPORATIONS, and finally, the US GOVERNMENT dictates who/what/where/how/why and for how long regarding everything in PR. So I ask you this, how do you blame Puerto Ricans for thier troubles, when in fact they have no control, and cannot have control, of themselves/present/future?
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Old 05-15-2009, 02:56 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,446,121 times
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When people speak of "PR transformed itself to this/that/whatever" the reality is PR did no such thing..the US dictates what happened, what is happening, and what will happen. If you believe PR transformed into a welfare state, you will have no argument from me. But to assert that PR transformed itself, or otherwise made a decision in its own interest without the OK from the boss (US..and Spain for that matter) over the last 500 years would show profound denial (and possible ignorance) of the reality of PR, its role in the US, and its history over the last 500 years of existence. PR is nothing more than a spoil of the war, and was treated as such. The US never intended to embrace the country, or somehow make it anything other than what it is today. It was developed completely and solely to serve the interests of its owner, the US...the rightful owner per the end of the war...Spain treated it no differently so why should the US? Hindsight, I agree that the elite class, like the elite class in the US, are playing the same games: They are benefiting from the promotion of a false sense of self, and draw power by keeping people focused on a singular (and misguided) evil: the US. However, maybe now you understand why there is SOME resistance to the US, as slaves usually have animosity towards their owners, and at the end of the day, PR, since its inception, has been enslaved.
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Old 05-15-2009, 08:33 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,327 times
Reputation: 105
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
I am not entirely sure why such accolades are bestowed upon hindsight. Because he can convey his thoughts on an above 8th grade level? Uses reasonably correct grammar and few run-on sentences? He speaks of the problems of PR just like everyone else..he just likes using fancier words because people are mesmorized and thus assume "he knows what he is talking about." However he ignores the same fundamental problem that everyone else does...PR cannot get its "house" in order no matter what gimmicks it tries, because at the end of the day, PRs, and PR, do not "own the house." In fact, they were essentially evicted from the house a long time ago and are now just squatters. What does that mean? Well AMERICAN CORPORATIONS own the overwhelming majority of land (and of course everything that sits on that land, like buildings) on the island, AMERICAN CORPORATIONS own the overwhelming majority of business on the island so no matter where you shop/what you buy/consume, all the money/profits/benefits go back to AMERICAN CORPORATIONS, and finally, the US GOVERNMENT dictates who/what/where/how/why and for how long regarding everything in PR. So I ask you this, how do you blame Puerto Ricans for thier troubles, when in fact they have no control, and cannot have control, of themselves/present/future?
How would this be different from reality of any other state in the USA? You think that if you move to other states the AMERICAN CORPORATIONS don't own you completely? If you move to any other state do you think that you have the right to make your choices freely without the government being involved? Interesting. This is the new reality within which we all have to live.
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Old 05-18-2009, 12:54 PM
 
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I mentioned the answer to this in a different post. The difference, if you take a moment to think about it, is very simple and obvious. PR's sole purpose is to serve US Corporations, and was developed for that purpose. There is NO OTHER INDUSTRY (besides some tourism and big government) of any substance. There is no state in the Union that was transformed solely to serve corporations. PR is entirel owned by corporations..they are the largest landowner, they own all the businesses, and all money spent (90 cents for very dollar spent that is) goes all back to the US and does not stay in the local economy. If any other state suffered from this abysmal and dysfunctional drain it would be in the same state as PR. When you move to another state you do not have China (for example) owning all the business, China doing all the hiring and only providing your community/state with minimum wage jobs, or Chinese products the only things to buy. What would happen? There would be no money for the local economy because all of it would be going back to China...and it would dry up leaving nothing but a welfare state..sound familiar?
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Old 05-19-2009, 04:17 AM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,327 times
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SobroGuy, I still don't see how PR differs from any other state in the respect of land ownership by private enterprise. It is a small island anyways so they have to set up shop somewhere. I also fail to see your fiscal argument through. With population of 4 million where half teeters on the poverty level, I just don't see PR as a huge income maker for any company. Your complaints may originate from the fact that the economy of the island is under such stress that any income leaving it is agrivating. If PR had more natural resources then it could foster some other industry besides turism, but this is not the case. Another mnufacturing overhead that PR suffers from is that of oversees transport, which makes producing here cost ineffective.

In regard to how money flows, it is however clear that PR would get more support from the US government once it had become a state.
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:33 AM
 
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Inneedofanswers, the reason why you do not understand the difference is because you are still missing the fundamental and most basic problem of PR: They do not have any power to do anything, they are just a wholly owned subsidiary of the US. All government, land, and business, and all products bought/sold on the island are OWNED by the US, with ALL profits going back to the US. Would you like to know how extreme it is? Well PR is a mecca for pharmaceutical manufacturing..not because there is something inherently special about PR, but because the US uses PR as a giant tax loophole for these US based manufacturers to avoid paying taxes on billions of dollars in profits. But this is where it gets really good...PR is the source of a major supply of global pharmaceutical products (pills, etc), so you would think they have direct distribution to local residents right? Maybe some costs savings to residents of the island as a result? NO. All products are shipped BACK to the US, then RESHIPPED to PR with an added charge of course, to the American business on the island that dole out pharmaceutical products..costing PR MORE MONEY for a product than a US resident ALTHOUGH they are manufactured on the island. WOW. You get it now?
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Old 05-19-2009, 11:46 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,446,121 times
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Regarding your idea that "if PR had more natural resources it would foster other industry" but this concept demonstrates your profound ignorance not only of PR but they way economies function. Please tell me what "natural resources" Switzerland has? The Alps is the economic driver? The reason why their economy is strong and healthy (at least it was) was the INVESTMENT BANKING sector, and of course the secrecy of its banking policies/account holders. This is NOT a "natural resource"..it is the product of brain power, and the ability of Switzerland to be INDEPENDENT and create its own policies that benefit itself and retain the benefits (financial and otherwise) IN SWITZERLAND, spurring further economic development and attracting investment. Same goes for a HOST of other countries like Singapore, a tiny country this is also densely population with NO natural resources...so they should be in poverty also? Well they were, except they changed course, as INDEPENDENT countries can, and within 30 years created a wealthy culture..not through natural resources, but through the formation of policies and investment that benefited Singapore, and solely Singapore. Your economic opinion of PR is misinformed, and based on unsound and wrong assumptions and it is almost impossible to convey on here the depths of how wrong you are. When Wall St, and the entire financial and banking sector of the US, which is the primary engine of our economy (consumption based on loose credit from banks, and the investment industry) is bought out by China, and China subsequently sucks all profits back to China, and provides low wage/low skill jobs in its place, what do you think will happen to NYC? And for that matter the US? It will get better? But wait..there will be "alot more jobs"...who cares if the former Wall st bankers are now making $10 an hour in a call center for the Chinese Banks right? Maybe then you will understand the economy of PR, and why it has no power to change it.
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Old 05-19-2009, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 883,327 times
Reputation: 105
SobroGuy, there is way too much anger in you. Is it so inconceivable that someone else has an opinion different than yours?

Your comparison to Switzerland is not an appropriate one. Power of Switzerland came from its history and the fact that it remained neutral during most European conflicts, hence it was a safe haven for the banking industry. (Agreed, so for completeness: either resources can lead to the development of locally grown businesses, or some other special circumstances.)

Regarding your observation how pharmaceutical operate in PR works. I would be surprised if it would work otherwise. Consider how much stuff Walmart imports via California's ports. No surprise, most of the stuff goes directly to the main Walmart distribution centers and then back to Walmarts in California. There are other examples like that. The tax loophole that you talk about, is also a standard practice used by other states, where huge intensives in terms of taxes are offered to attract production plants. Note that PR workers are employed in these companies, so not all money goes back to mainland as you claim.

However, I do understand your anger and frustration. Trust me that I am equally frustrated, but in our anger we should care to see how all sides affect the situation. Was I amazed and angered to see $700B to go to the banks, yes I was. At the same time I do understand the bankers. If I was in their shoes, then I probably would be stilling as well. Who knows.

It is my personal opinion PR is not as controlled by US as you would think. I don't know what were the historical specifics surrounding the votes for independence/statehood, but the fact that US called for and allowed such votes implies to me that they care less if PR becomes a state or not. Will US try to benefit from possession of PR until the day they become independent, sure why not -- would you do anything different if you were a super power? It takes one person to make positive changes, and PR is still waiting for that someone.

Finally, please do not insult me and scream at me. I may not have an in depth understanding of PR problems, but I am not as misinformed and ignorant as you make me to be. This is a forum for discussion, so let us discuss in civility.

Last edited by InNeedOfAnswers; 05-19-2009 at 01:43 PM..
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