U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > U.S. Territories
 [Register]
U.S. Territories Puerto Rico, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, etc.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-19-2009, 03:10 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,438,626 times
Reputation: 4168

Advertisements

It's really not anger at all, it is just the simple fact that PR really has no control other than what the US approves. Simple. It is like an adult kid living at home. Sure they may be working, and even be living in a seperate apt in the basement, and can come and go as they please, so they are in many ways "independent." However, the parents ultimately decide the who/what/where/how because it is the Parent's house and they have the final say. Whatever the child wants, the parents will consider of course, but at the end of the day you live under your parents roof and do what you say. You want to do what you want, and do things how you want to..guess what will have to happen? Move out and get your own place, and TRULY be independent. And that is the problem we have with PR, except it is FAR more complicated. I am not insulting you or screaming, however your statements clearly show you do not understand the real problems, and you are really just discussing the symptoms of the problems, and the problems itself. As soon as PR has control of its own policies, trade, legislation, and economy, only then will it have a CHANCE to move forward. Until that time, it is nothing more than a wholly owned subsidiary of American Corporations for the SOLE purpose of avoiding taxes....and the populations ONLY options are to either work low wage/skill jobs for eternity for American Corporations, be on welfare, or leave the island..which are the only choices they have been making for decades. It does take only one person to make positive change, but ultimately the real power to change lies with the US..until they relinquish control and allow PR to move forward, nothing will change.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-19-2009, 06:43 PM
 
Location: Puerto Rico
177 posts, read 882,957 times
Reputation: 105
That sounds good. I am all for independence if people want it, but I have lived through one such system change and it is not pretty if things are not done well. You should not think that if PR becomes independent then corporations will somehow start obeying and play by the rules. From my experience, corporations often find a way to influence the change of government and take steps to further improve their standing to emerge stronger and even more influential than in the prior state. Ask your self, who will have the capital after PR becomes independent? It is these global corporations who will wave big checks in front of the newly formed government that is starving for financial resources. In these and similar forums people often give examples of what went well after becoming independent, but remember that there are plenty of examples of what went wrong after gaining independent. Take a look at the neighboring Carib nations, almost entire Eastern Post-Soviet Block, many post colonial nations in Asia, and almost all of Africa. Things can go horribly and irreversibly wrong if independence movement is not being planned carefully. This is especially true since, at least now, USA is not militarily hostile towards PR. If you have smart parents then why not hear what they have to say?

I don't claim to know all, I don't claim to understand everything, but I have lived in few places around the globe, and I have seen history being made. On my own skin I tell you that not all change is for the better! What you will do with these words is up to you, but keep them as a waring that passion has consequences.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2009, 07:39 AM
 
345 posts, read 1,154,953 times
Reputation: 107
i did, its called college
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-20-2009, 11:29 AM
 
8,750 posts, read 16,438,626 times
Reputation: 4168
Inneedofchange, I agree with all of those concerns....but the only way to find out is to TRY right? How can Americans disagree with PRs quest for independence when America is all about INDEPENDENCE and the battles that occured to unit this country? How can we sit back and tell them all the problems that may/may not/will occur, when we as a country suffered them all to some degree, and succeeded, not becuase we were AFRAID of what could happen, but because we DEMANDED freedom. Imagine if Americans never tried, for fear of what may happen and instead remained under European rule? What if Americans never spread throughout the Americas for fear of what may be out there? What if Bill Gates stayed working his 9-5 job for fear of taking a chance and starting a computer business? The same applies to PR...all the problems/benefits/pains/problems/power of freedome. However we should all be aware that PR has never tasted freedom, and have been enslaved since inception, so they have become culturally a dependent nation in every way that it can be. Does this mean they cannot survive, or should not bother trying? Heck no...the rewards, as we as Americans know, are endless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-02-2009, 10:36 PM
 
Location: Centro Tejas
543 posts, read 893,601 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by crisp444 View Post
"Quality of life" is subjective. There are plenty of people living very comfortable lives in Old San Juan, Guaynabo, Dorado... in those places quality of life is just as good or better than most places on the mainland.
Because that's where all of the rich people live. I dated a guy from Dorado, and boy was he a spoiled rich guy. However, he worked like any "poor" dude...just to end up in the hotel business like his family; owners of several hotels in Old San Juan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-02-2009, 10:37 PM
 
Location: Centro Tejas
543 posts, read 893,601 times
Reputation: 367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trucker7 View Post
I have to disagree. While college graduates with good jobs can enjoy a comfortable lifestyle by PR standards, the quality of life is definitely not better than that on the mainland. You might have a decent house and plenty of food in the fridge, but the moment that you step outside of your gated community, you are at the mercy of criminals, have to deal with the insane traffic and pollution, and have to work with the government bureaucracy. Not to mention that salaries are subpar in every category.

Don't get me wrong. I love PR. Most of my family lives down there and I like to visit when I can. But it is not the place where I would like to raise my kids.
Neither do I.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-03-2009, 02:59 PM
 
56 posts, read 132,198 times
Reputation: 46
I worked with Puerto Ricans in Florida and they weren't friendly and stuck together. Rarely got them to smile! What is it with Puerto Ricans? Are they that unworldly or racist? Other nationalities are really friendly. I found this unnerving. If they can't be American friendly, stay in PR!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2009, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Hagerstown MD
225 posts, read 983,107 times
Reputation: 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by hindsight2020 View Post
You have to overhaul the way Puerto Ricans define themselves in the context of their US citizenship. This is to say, you have to open the island up to the educational and business opportunities the mainland offers. This entails dispossessing the PR ruling class from their ability to define for the average puerto rican what it means to be one. Bi-culturalism has to be pushed forth as a value-adding trait, and not as cultural suicide as it is currently portrayed. Bi-lingualism has to be embraced by the median puerto rican in the same capacity, a value-adding trait, not cultural suicide.

The most logical conclusion for this outcome on a macro level would be statehood, but said outcome is unlikely right off the chute since there is no incentive for the CONUS to entertain it and there is a cultural dead-lock in the island for it. What needs to happen is the administration needs to go after the tentacles of the octopus before going for its head. This means re-incentivizing mainland industries to do business in the island, refocus the budget from the current one trick pony of putting everybody on the govt payroll and more into a CONUS-centric educational system aimed at highlighting the importance of bilingual proficiency and more exchanges with CONUS universities at the college level. The reason puerto ricans don't feel american is quite literally because the majority thinks of the mainland as a far away land that neither understands them nor represents them. These educational gap fills would change that perception and provide access to the median puerto rican to the idea that the CONUS is not just for the PR elite but rather it is accessible to all those who possess the mere DESIRE to change their condition. You get the majority of college graduates from UPR to adopt this bi-cultural mentality and you would be amazed at the social progress the island can achieve in 10 years.

Furthermore, environmentalists in the island need to be squashed. They are pawns of the PR elite. They promote anti-business agendas that keep the average puerto rican poor and uneducated. They accomplish this by vilifying progressive business and offer the preservation of a 'pristine' island preserved in a time capsule as an inherently valuable pursuit. This is nonsense and needs to be reversed. Folklore doesn't feed a civilization, progress does. There needs to be a counter-culture thinking group of young people that rebuke the environmentalist mantra that being pro-American and respecting one's culture is a mutually exclusive affair. The PR elite is of course at the center of this vendetta. They need to be confronted and challenged.

Finally, puerto ricans from the CONUS (second generation and beyond) need to butt out. They keep a nostalgic view of the island that does nothing to help Puerto Rico progress. It's quite selfish really. All they care about is superfluous talk about folkloric food and music, while disingenuously asserting that they "would love to retire in PR". Nonsense. If PR was good enough for them they would have made the jump already. The reality of the matter is that Ricans from the CONUS love the idea of visiting the island and telling their white friends back home that they have more to their cultural identity than a "plain white anglo-saxon" 200 year old vaguely defined cultural context that they accuse said white friends of having. Same goes for African Americans. Wake the heck up. You're not an island native, you are not vested in the idiosyncrasies of that place and therefore you are in no position to assert that cultural homogeneity (your freggin' affection for 'tostones y lechón asaó') is of more importance that the economic and social progress of 4 million people stuck in a self-appointed rejection of their ability to better their condition for a worthless irrelevancy like a beauty pageant or olympic team representation. If American progress was good enough for you it's good enough for them too.

This is how you make it happen. Will it happen? Unlikely. Which is why I left. I have bigger horizons to travel than to watch myself waste away trying to help people who don't want to help themselves.
************************************************** ******
Would you propose much of this same solution for the US Virgin Is, Guam, and Samoa as well? I have often pondered why we (the USCON & Gov) even bothered having these possessions if we just leave them "to rot", to use a phrase. Here we have great tourist destinations, if nothing else, and yet we let them remain in Third World status. I have only been to St. Croix and while I have seen some beautiful spots there were also too many others that one would not wish to venture. These places seem to have only two extremes - the very rich and the very poor. I am not saying we need to "industrialize" these areas but they should be closer to a First World status than they are. And we are going to "outsource" jobs why not "outsource" to our own possessions. It still remains in the US so to speak and would wind up giving jobs to people there who could probably use it more than a place like India. These are just the thoughts (and questions) of an ordinary person, not some "expert". I am not laying claim to that in any way. The solutions seem simple enough almost and I am sure the objectives could be accomplished if we don't permit them to become too complicated. Just my thoughts on the matter and looking forward to your views.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2009, 11:03 AM
 
56 posts, read 132,198 times
Reputation: 46
Puerto Rico has been asked to join our country and they don't want to!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-04-2009, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Hagerstown MD
225 posts, read 983,107 times
Reputation: 183
They don't need to be admitted as a state but as a possession I believe we have some responsibility (although not entirely, these islands need to be able to take care of themselves) to get them out of Third World status and more in line with a higher standard of living. That's all I am saying. Otherwise why keep them as possessions?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > U.S. Territories
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top