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So I met a guy at a bar the other night that was fiercly pro independence. They're so hard to find that I kind of latched on to him the whole night to talk to him,... he didn't mind so long as I kept buying drinks. LOL!.
He said something that made me think. He said (in spanish, of course, so pardon my translation) "If the big antilles were characters in imperial times, and the U.S. was the emperor, cuba would be a poor share-cropper, jamaica and haiti would be steet peddalers, santo domingo would be a servant and puerto rico would be the eunuch who voluntarily neutered himself to live inside the palace with the concubines... yeah the others r poor, but at least they keep their balls" LOL!... i had never heard it put like that. Not that I agree with him... but it was an interesting view.
Then he went on to talk about schools throughout PR at a young age they drill the doctrine that PR cant survive on its own and how everyone is brainwashed to think that PR needs to be a part of the US otherwise it would fall apart... but other small islands 'round the world do fine.
I've never been a proponent for independence, but i think the status quo is asinine... I can't believe I'm not allowed to vote for the president that may order a war that I may be drafted to . I know there was a thread a while ago about political status... I'd like to hear people's thoughts on my new friend's thoughts, without insults, hyperbolic statements, or personal attacks. (That means you chacho )
Merry Christmas Joleado!!! I trust you'll enjoy the holidays with family and loved ones. Wish you and them all the best. Be safe.
OK, I won't ream into you given that it's X-mas and all that. But come January 1st, the gloves come off again! Fair?
Contrary to your "friend," I heard a totally different message growing up on the island during the 70's; that is, "La Republica puertorriqueña es una posible realidad (the Puerto Rican Republic is a possible reality.)
By the time I was fourteen, one night I listened as Ruben Berrios urged the youth of Gilberto Concepción De Gracias's hometown to get up and do our part, and be ready for the struggle of the future republic. In addition, Berrios was quick to remind us that smoking marijuana would not be tolerated in the future republic. All you could hear were crickets and coquis after he said that. He easily lost more than half of the audience that night after making that statement.
But seriously, Berrios was one of many voices at the time trumping the idea of a Puerto Rican Republic. People like Carlos Gallisa, Juan Mari- Bras, and of course, "Los Macheteros" gave many of us cause to think along similar lines. On a local level, several middle and high school teachers were quick to propagandize the ideals of the independent movement.
While I'd like to think that some of those early ideals are still near and dear to my heart, the fact is that "reality" speaks louder than my ideals. I could be wrong, but it seems like the mindset of most Boricuas on the island has changed dramatically since the 70's. It seems like too many people over there grow up with a sense of entitlement (i.e., the government owes me the freedom from having to sacrifice and from having to work hard, if at all.)
Why would anyone dare think that an independent nation could be built upon the shoulders of people with such mindsets and such disdain for common work?
Unfortunately (and I pray to be wrong), I don't see Puerto Rico progressing beyond it's welfare colony status. Matter of fact, for several other reasons, I am convinced that life "as-it-currently-is" in Puerto Rico is unsustainable. The history of Rapa-Nui is a near comparison of my perception of Puerto Rico's unsustainability. Look up it's history Joleado.
As much as I want to someday live back home, reality tells me otherwise. Frequent visits may have to do.
All the best...friend!
Last edited by chacho_keva; 12-24-2009 at 07:03 PM..
Merry Christmas Joleado!!! I trust you'll enjoy the holidays with family and loved ones. Wish you and them all the best. Be safe.
OK, I won't ream into you given that it's X-mas and all that. But come January 1st, the gloves come off again! Fair?
Contrary to your "friend," I heard a totally different message growing up on the island during the 70's; that is, "La Republica puertorriqueña es una posible realidad (the Puerto Rican Republic is a possible reality.)
By the time I was fourteen, one night I listened as Ruben Berrios urged the youth of Gilberto Concepción De Gracias's hometown to get up and do our part, and be ready for the struggle of the future republic. In addition, Berrios was quick to remind us that smoking marijuana would not be tolerated in the future republic. All you could hear were crickets and coquis after he said that. He easily lost more than half of the audience that night after making that statement.
But seriously, Berrios was one of many voices at the time trumping the idea of a Puerto Rican Republic. People like Carlos Gallisa, Juan Mari- Bras, and of course, "Los Macheteros" gave many of us cause to think along similar lines. On a local level, several middle and high school teachers were quick to propagandize the ideals of the independent movement.
While I'd like to think that some of those early ideals are still near and dear to my heart, the fact is that "reality" speaks louder than my ideals. I could be wrong, but it seems like the mindset of most Boricuas on the island has changed dramatically since the 70's. It seems like too many people over there grow up with a sense of entitlement (i.e., the government owes me the freedom from having to sacrifice and from having to work hard, if at all.)
Why would anyone dare think that an independent nation could be built upon the shoulders of people with such mindsets and such disdain for common work?
Unfortunately (and I pray to be wrong), I don't see Puerto Rico progressing beyond it's welfare colony status. Matter of fact, for several other reasons, I am convinced that life "as-it-currently-is" in Puerto Rico is unsustainable. The history of Rapa-Nui is a near comparison of my perception of Puerto Rico's unsustainability. Look up it's history Joleado.
As much as I want to someday live back home, reality tells me otherwise. Frequent visits may have to do.
All the best...friend!
Aw hell. guess all gloves r off. Hope u had a good christmas... I escaped the harshness of the beautiful island weather in December to bask in the arid, dry and freezing cold of El Paso, Tx.
Well, the guy who I talked to touched on a point you mentioned: the older generation still has memories of that movement, but to most young people today, the idea of autonomy is anathema. He also said this well known line (I've heard it a couple times): If PRcans were to vote with their hearts theyd vote for independence. Instead they vote with their stomachs and their minds. Guess that's reality.
But I agree with you, chacho, it'd be tough for PR to be independent. But I am going to push back on the analogy of RAPA NUI. (I assume you're talking about Easter Island):
See... Puerto Rico as we know it today is perfectly sustainable precisely because of what you said: It's a welfare state. Unlike Caribbean nations like Haiti, it doesn't need to pillage it's own natural resources to survive, since it gets a large chunk of it's money from the U.S: proportionally Puerto Ricans receive more welfare than any other state; more puerto ricans join the U.S. military than any other. U.S. government jobs on the island are a sizeable chunk of the workforce. And then there's help from CONUS Puerto Ricans. And I didn't even mention the direct aid Puerto Rico gets from the U.S. If it wasn't for all that, they'd have to be tilling the land over and over, chopping down rainforests to sell for timber and coal, and mining the crap out of the land.... none of this is happening. Yes, there is urban sprawl, but it's not going to engulf the island (for a while at least). At least in my children's lifetimes, we probably won't see
the collapse of Puerto Rico in Rapa Nui proportions.
Aw hell. guess all gloves r off. Hope u had a good christmas... I escaped the harshness of the beautiful island weather in December to bask in the arid, dry and freezing cold of El Paso, Tx.
Well, the guy who I talked to touched on a point you mentioned: the older generation still has memories of that movement, but to most young people today, the idea of autonomy is anathema. He also said this well known line (I've heard it a couple times): If PRcans were to vote with their hearts theyd vote for independence. Instead they vote with their stomachs and their minds. Guess that's reality.
But I agree with you, chacho, it'd be tough for PR to be independent. But I am going to push back on the analogy of RAPA NUI. (I assume you're talking about Easter Island):
See... Puerto Rico as we know it today is perfectly sustainable precisely because of what you said: It's a welfare state. Unlike Caribbean nations like Haiti, it doesn't need to pillage it's own natural resources to survive, since it gets a large chunk of it's money from the U.S: proportionally Puerto Ricans receive more welfare than any other state; more puerto ricans join the U.S. military than any other. U.S. government jobs on the island are a sizeable chunk of the workforce. And then there's help from CONUS Puerto Ricans. And I didn't even mention the direct aid Puerto Rico gets from the U.S. If it wasn't for all that, they'd have to be tilling the land over and over, chopping down rainforests to sell for timber and coal, and mining the crap out of the land.... none of this is happening. Yes, there is urban sprawl, but it's not going to engulf the island (for a while at least). At least in my children's lifetimes, we probably won't see
the collapse of Puerto Rico in Rapa Nui proportions.
*Now I brace myself*
Joleado...I'll call you "my brother" for now. Por lo menos hasta que se me pase la juma!!! ja! ja!
BTW...will be on the island as of the 12th of next week. Watch your back!
You say Puerto Rico will remain a sustainable society precisely because of it's dependence on the United States. My claim is that it's UNSUSTAINABLE for the following reasons:
1. almost 3 million inhabitants and growing on an area of 100mi X 35mi. This means that the island has to support 857 persons per SQmi.
2. most of the 3 million inhabitants have a high purchasing power. The higher the purchasing power, the more waste is produced. BTW, by 1999, PR generated 16,000 tons per day of solid waste.
3. with only 3500 SQmi of habitable surface, Puerto Rico has a limited amount of space to spare for additional landfills.
4. don't know the exact number, but last I heard, Puerto Rico was down to 19 active landfills from 30-something over a decade ago.
5. with so few landfills, plus a growing population with purchasing power, and with a government whom TO THIS DAY IS NOT WILLING to consider WASTE-TO-ENERGY as an alternative to landfilling...how long will Puerto Rico be able to sustain population growths coupled with increases in solid waste generation without having adequate disposal sites?
Clandestine landfills (vertederos) are already found all throughout the island. Just take a trip to Vega Baja and you will see one of the island's biggest heaps of trash right on the coast.
Unfortunately, since 1988, government officials have been reluctant to stand behind the only possible remedy to deal with the ever-growing problem of waste management; i.e., WASTE-TO-ENERGY (WTE).
Yes Joleado...as you might imagine, this is my passion and what I do for a living. This is what I've done for 25 years. I am in the business of generating electrical power from the discards of society. Currently work in a facility which generates 62 Megawatts form nothing more than domestic trash.
Not only that, but I was involved with a company named Energy Answers Corporation. We tried our best to build and operate a 3000 ton per day WTE plant in the Cambalache Arecibo area. We were met with vociferous opposition from local politicians who made a name for themselves by opposing our solution to Puerto Rico's garbage dilemma. Their argument (and that of several environmentalists) was that Puerto Rico's garbage issues could be dealt with by simply recycling "everything."
Our proven solutions and propositions were rotundly ignored and dismissed. The voices of the opposers were upheld. End result? Puerto Rico's garbage problems are no longer manageable. The island generates more trash than it is capable of burying. If population and waste generation trends continue to rise we will have another modern day "Rapa Nui" on our hands.
Just came back from visiting the folks in the island. Nothing's changed. Same ol same ol. PR will not become a state nor independent in our collective lifetimes. They will continue to accept the colonial status for the relative advantage of having a US citizenship. Puerto Ricans who wish to aspire to something different (so as to not bias the argument with the word better) will inevitably have to emigrate to the CONUS or otherwise abroad. There's just no traction anywhere for PR to become a state, and much less traction for it to become independent.
My parents will likely die and be buried in the island, and I'll probably keep property down there for the purposes of retaining a vacation property and keeping a place I can dwell while visiting the remnants of my kind. Other than that, that place is doomed to political limbo.
I do agree that waste production is a growing problem, and that is accentuated by the geographical constraints of the island.
As to the CONUS connection, that's a stretch. PR will never give up their affiliation with the states. Population is too intertwined with and accustomed to being US citizens. They won't give it up. a couple of die hards will keep their banter up, though they'll never renounce their US citizenship, go figure. The place will just die from brain drain, which is what's happening currently. Already there are more Puerto Ricans in the CONUS than in the island, so that's indicative of the loss of relevance the island has on its own population, other than a nostalgic icon. This of course is not good news for those who remain in the island. But like your friend stated correctly (the only thing I can agree with in his banter) they did that to themselves.
Joleado...I'll call you "my brother" for now. Por lo menos hasta que se me pase la juma!!! ja! ja!
BTW...will be on the island as of the 12th of next week. Watch your back!
You say Puerto Rico will remain a sustainable society precisely because of it's dependence on the United States. My claim is that it's UNSUSTAINABLE for the following reasons:
1. almost 3 million inhabitants and growing on an area of 100mi X 35mi. This means that the island has to support 857 persons per SQmi.
2. most of the 3 million inhabitants have a high purchasing power. The higher the purchasing power, the more waste is produced. BTW, by 1999, PR generated 16,000 tons per day of solid waste.
3. with only 3500 SQmi of habitable surface, Puerto Rico has a limited amount of space to spare for additional landfills.
4. don't know the exact number, but last I heard, Puerto Rico was down to 19 active landfills from 30-something over a decade ago.
5. with so few landfills, plus a growing population with purchasing power, and with a government whom TO THIS DAY IS NOT WILLING to consider WASTE-TO-ENERGY as an alternative to landfilling...how long will Puerto Rico be able to sustain population growths coupled with increases in solid waste generation without having adequate disposal sites?
Clandestine landfills (vertederos) are already found all throughout the island. Just take a trip to Vega Baja and you will see one of the island's biggest heaps of trash right on the coast.
Unfortunately, since 1988, government officials have been reluctant to stand behind the only possible remedy to deal with the ever-growing problem of waste management; i.e., WASTE-TO-ENERGY (WTE).
Yes Joleado...as you might imagine, this is my passion and what I do for a living. This is what I've done for 25 years. I am in the business of generating electrical power from the discards of society. Currently work in a facility which generates 62 Megawatts form nothing more than domestic trash.
Not only that, but I was involved with a company named Energy Answers Corporation. We tried our best to build and operate a 3000 ton per day WTE plant in the Cambalache Arecibo area. We were met with vociferous opposition from local politicians who made a name for themselves by opposing our solution to Puerto Rico's garbage dilemma. Their argument (and that of several environmentalists) was that Puerto Rico's garbage issues could be dealt with by simply recycling "everything."
Our proven solutions and propositions were rotundly ignored and dismissed. The voices of the opposers were upheld. End result? Puerto Rico's garbage problems are no longer manageable. The island generates more trash than it is capable of burying. If population and waste generation trends continue to rise we will have another modern day "Rapa Nui" on our hands.
... you know i ALWAYS wondered about the landfills and dumps!
OH and... typical government non-sense when they told you they could recycle everything. LOL. I'm sure they scurried after their meeting with you to create a "recycle everything program". As for Waste to Energy... There needs to be a lot more education... I know there's a couple plants like that in Europe and the U.S.. It's a heavy pollutant, but it could lower the island's energy costs and clear up some landfills. (I need to educate myself on that a bit more.)
Hindsight... love hearing your thoughts. You're definitely a pessimist, but you ensure that hilarity ensues in all your posts.
I am a big proponent of independence for PR. And to put it in the simplest of terms, the analogy goes like tis:
Do you believe you are better off living at home, as an adult, in a 2 bedroom basement apt. You pay modest rent, it includes all utilities, and feel totally secure knowing that your Daddy upstairs (who owns the building) will take care of you. You do not own the apt, but simply pay rent to your Dad, he dictates the "rules of the house", and allows you a fair amount of freedom so that you can work part-time and spend your days hanging out, cuz at the end of the day Daddy will take care of you in some way. At the very least he won't throw you out cuz you do what he requires: take out the garbage, clean the house, weed the yard, wash clothes, paint, dry cleaning, etc.
OR do you believe you are better off living at home, going to school, getting an education or acquiring skills with the intention of moving out and being self-supportive (independent)? It is a risk..you may move out get into debt and be homeless. I am sure you know friends who have lost it all and ended up with nothing. You may move out and end up discovering the cure for Cancer, or change the world like Bill Gates, be the next US President, etc. How would you know unless you try?
So although this is a simple analogy, it really comes down to that simple choice. I believe PR is better off becoming independent. Does that mean starting 1/1/11 the US simple shuts the doors and all US type businesses/money/laws disappear? Of course not..it is a gradual process...the same way you are going to school/acquiring skills so that you work TOWARDS being independent, and not just randomly one day say I am moving out goodbye with no job/home/skills/money.
Alas, until PR decides either statehood OR independence, the island will simply waste all its time and energy demonizing political parties, and voting in new poltical agendas every 4 years, whose main task is to reverse all the prior adminsitrations "achievements and progress." 1 Step forward..2 steps back..which is how we end up further and further behind every year.
On a side note, I am sad to announce that my grandparents, and much of the rest of what's left of my family in PR, have decided to once and for all, abandon ship. Like so many others, they have had enough, have put their homes for sale, and are moving to...where else...Florida, where a growing percentage of my family, and PR friends/families from NY have also moved and will be moving to.
Such is life I presume....they immigrated from somewhere before PR...this just another journey.
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