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Hi All,
I filed on 1/31 after being "fired" for not accepting a lower salary than I made with this same company in 2019. Backstory-I had two positions at this job. I was a great employee, never late, never written up -etc. I loved my job and the flexibility it offered bc I have young children. After the new year-they wanted to reorganize my position and promote me -this would entail eliminating my 2nd position and my commission and they would give me a salary to focus solely on the one position-also the job responsibility doubled and the amount of on site hours increased. I was thrilled -until they gave me the proposed salary which was roughly 12k less than I made last year with them doing the two positions! Long story short-I tried negotiating I gave them the numbers from last year and told them it would be a personal and financial hardship to take on double the responsibility and less money-they didnt want to negotiate and told me to turn in my work phone-
Within ten minutes I was seeing emails from the boss to my clients that I was no longer employed there. I was and am still heartbroken! I went to negotiate and ended up fired-all I wanted was for them to at least come close to matching what I made last year-anyways I applied same day and it still says filed-Im supposed to claim for the first time tomorrow. Not sure what to expect-if they werent willing to negotiate for a great employee i doubt they will wanna pay unemployment---I have anxiety over this!!!!
You have a qualifying story. It's best if it's treated as a firing, but it might be treated as a quit, but you're in luck. In NJ, when you properly make issue of the correct CHANGES, the worst that can happen is that it's treated as a refusal of suitable work, and you only get hit with a 4-wk disqualification.
I'm going to help you out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
I had two positions at this job.
Don't focus on the "job," focus on the DUTIES and less MONEY, and that you never agreed to do the new ones or accept the lower pay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
I was a great employee, never late, never written up -etc. I loved my job
UI doesn't care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
and the flexibility it offered bc I have young children.
Not only does UI not care about this, if you say this, you can find yourself disqualified because of an "able and available" issue or "quit because of child care." The first one isn't so bad. If you talk too much and get hit with the second, you'll not get UI at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
promote me
Don't say this. If you say this, you'll make people think the job was better. It wasn't to you, and it doesn't sound better to me either. You're better off saying "demote," because . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
-this would entail eliminating my 2nd position and my commission . . .give me a salary . . . also the job responsibility doubled . . . .
. . .the proposed salary which was roughly 12k less than I made last year
this doesn't sound like a promotion at all. Sounds like a pay cut to the extreme. More work, higher value work, more hours, and less money.
Are you getting this now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
Long story short-I tried negotiating I gave them the numbers from last year and told them it would be a personal and financial hardship to take on double the responsibility and less money-they didnt want to negotiate and told me to turn in my work phone-
Don't say it like this. You say, "I tried to preserve my employment. I told them to leave things alone. I told them I didn't want to do more work for less money.
If you say "negotiate," you can confuse a UI worker into disqualifying you because you "quit because a raise was refused."
You have a winning story, but you need to tell it right, or you'll find yourself in appeals trying to change your choice of words.
What did you put on your UI application? Did you have a phone interview? What did you say?
The first place to start is that you were FIRED, and shut up. It's just easier. As the process advances, if you realize that your employer is saying, "we had continuing work, she didn't want to do the job anymore," at that point you shift gears into talking about how crappy it was. That then leads to the second prong: you can be fired from the job that HAD, and refuse NEW work. This is a concept that's recognized and makes it a little easier to get UI because it still puts the burden on the employer. If you go down the quit path and don't stand up for yourself, then YOU end up with the burden to prove just how crappy the job was, and I'm afraid you have nothing in writing, and if the employer says, "we never said that," you'll then be relying on being believed. That's why you start with fired and hope for the early victory or that the employer might say, "what is she talking about? We were trying to 'promote' her." At that point, the employer is admitting that the job was CHANGING, and they won't be able to pull the "we never said that" effectively anymore.
Putting all the emotional commentary and irrelevant misconceptions, this is not that hard of an issue so long as you focus on the actual issue.
When they reorganized your position, did they give you the option of remaining as things were or was it the new reorganized position or nothing?
It was this or nothing-while in negotiations they already eliminated my 2nd position by taking me off the schedule-During negotiations I was kept in the dark but I have emails where I said Id like to make this work for all of us-whether we tweak the current position or compromise the salary to at least come close to matching my salary from the previous year.
You have a qualifying story. It's best if it's treated as a firing, but it might be treated as a quit, but you're in luck. In NJ, when you properly make issue of the correct CHANGES, the worst that can happen is that it's treated as a refusal of suitable work, and you only get hit with a 4-wk disqualification.
I'm going to help you out.
Don't focus on the "job," focus on the DUTIES and less MONEY, and that you never agreed to do the new ones or accept the lower pay.
UI doesn't care.
Not only does UI not care about this, if you say this, you can find yourself disqualified because of an "able and available" issue or "quit because of child care." The first one isn't so bad. If you talk too much and get hit with the second, you'll not get UI at all.
Don't say this. If you say this, you'll make people think the job was better. It wasn't to you, and it doesn't sound better to me either. You're better off saying "demote," because . . .
this doesn't sound like a promotion at all. Sounds like a pay cut to the extreme. More work, higher value work, more hours, and less money.
Are you getting this now?
Don't say it like this. You say, "I tried to preserve my employment. I told them to leave things alone. I told them I didn't want to do more work for less money.
If you say "negotiate," you can confuse a UI worker into disqualifying you because you "quit because a raise was refused."
You have a winning story, but you need to tell it right, or you'll find yourself in appeals trying to change your choice of words.
What did you put on your UI application? Did you have a phone interview? What did you say?
The first place to start is that you were FIRED, and shut up. It's just easier. As the process advances, if you realize that your employer is saying, "we had continuing work, she didn't want to do the job anymore," at that point you shift gears into talking about how crappy it was. That then leads to the second prong: you can be fired from the job that HAD, and refuse NEW work. This is a concept that's recognized and makes it a little easier to get UI because it still puts the burden on the employer. If you go down the quit path and don't stand up for yourself, then YOU end up with the burden to prove just how crappy the job was, and I'm afraid you have nothing in writing, and if the employer says, "we never said that," you'll then be relying on being believed. That's why you start with fired and hope for the early victory or that the employer might say, "what is she talking about? We were trying to 'promote' her." At that point, the employer is admitting that the job was CHANGING, and they won't be able to pull the "we never said that" effectively anymore.
Thank you for all of this helpful info-
When I applied online I said I was fired-bc I was. I chose the drop down reason as "reorganization" and put the reason as "restructured position offering me less income and more hours causing causing personal and financial hardship"
I have screenshots of me not being on the schedule for the next two weeks-which shows they already put the new position into play before even telling me the new proposed salary. i have screenshots ten minutes after being fired of them telling clients im no longer employed there.
I have multiple emails where I outline my current duties and my income from last year and asking for my proposal. I was getting backed into a corner bc they knew they were lowballing me. I did tell them we should keep as is and tweak the responsibilities and compensation minimally to make everyone happy-that was ignored.
I have a text from the owner in which this is stated (ill not post the entire thing) "Once we were made aware of your compensation request it was clear that we were far apart and there was no way we could make things work. I understand your rational....."Also, The manager that fired me is the daughter of the owner who text me.
When I applied online I said I was fired-bc I was. I chose the drop down reason as "reorganization" and
This part was great, but . . .
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
put the reason as "restructured position offering me less income and more hours causing causing personal and financial hardship"
you should have stopped while you were ahead.
". . . personal and financial hardship" is not something the UI system cares about. What it does care about is that you had a deal (your old job) and the employer was busting the deal.
Do NOT let yourself get baited into discussing your "personal and financial hardship."
It's ok to come across as an uncompromising and greedy person that thinks you're too good for a pay cut and demotion. I'm dead serious.
I know this because I lived it. I had a so-so job with great benefits, and then I was reduced to 20 hours per week, and they took away my full-time benefits. I struggled to get UI because I said things wrong.
Then I learned about NEW work, and was able to undo my mistakes.
I quit and applied for UI in December, 2010, and didn't learn about this until May, 2011. I still didn't get UI until Dec, 2011, but I had a lot to fix in my story.
You're learning this now, and you're not too deep into the process. You might fare better.
Nowhere in this UIPL or it's supporting documents or in any description of "new" work does your personal situation have anything to do with anything. It's OLD job vs NEW job, and if it's a detriment to you, and a benefit to the employer, THAT is the winning argument.
For now, just become a broken record, "I was fired. My job didn't exist anymore." UI workers can really get hung up on "was continuing work available" even when it's crap work, and you don't know who you're going to get reviewing your UI claim, and why you don't want to get into the reason you provided.
Happened to this guy too, but I was able to help him BEFORE he had that first hearing. By the time I learned of "new" work, I had already had my first hearing, and a new hearing was ordered when I went to the board of review, but the way I originally said things was already out there, and once someone gets it in their head that you might have actually quit rather than being fired, it's really hard to undo.
Thank you so much for your guidance! Ugh this is so nervewracking!!! Does everyone get some sort of interview? Im not sure why or how they could fight this!! If I wasnt fired or was offered for the job to remain Id still be there-happily! I was fired for no reason and now have to have anxiety that I may say the wrong thing to hurt my chances of UI-This is a messed up world we live in! Honestly who in their right mind would accept these terms? I hate saying demoted bc it makes me feel like I did something wrong when in fact I was a stellar employee-the employers just do not want to pay fair.--Sorry just venting-this is so frustrating-what happens with a 4 week disqualification? I lose the 4 weeks?
All quitters and fired people are supposed to, but sometimes the UI people don't call.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
Im not sure why or how they could fight this!!
It's not just you and the employer, there is the NJ DOL. No one wants to pay UI to a quitter.
Look, I lived this. It wasn't my employer that put me through 5 appeals, it was the UI agency that was doing the employer's job. You should have seen the decisions I received:
"You quit your job because you objected to working part time or a reduced schedule" - I didn't. I objected to losing my medical, dental, and life insurance. My access to short- and long-term disability. Severance package eligibility if fired, and since I already had my hours cut, that seemed like a real possibility.
"The job still paid more than minimum wage and since that is legal employment it was suitable, and your employer didn't discriminate against you" - This decision blew me away.
"Your wages weren't reduced. You were still making the same amount per hour." - This judge thought a $12/hr job with health insurance was exactly equal to a $12/hr job without.
"Your wages weren't reduced. Health insurance is a nontaxed benefit" and then proceeded to quote from the tax code, and explain to me that the other judge was right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
and now have to have anxiety that I may say the wrong thing to hurt my chances of UI-This is a messed up world we live in! Honestly who in their right mind would accept these terms? I hate saying demoted bc it makes me feel like I did something wrong when in fact I was a stellar employee-the employers just do not want to pay fair.--Sorry just venting-this is so frustrating-what happens with a 4 week disqualification? I lose the 4 weeks?
I agree with you, but fired people don't say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLW1280
"restructured position offering me less income and more hours causing causing personal and financial hardship"
That's what a quitter would say.
We will deal with the ramifications of the 4-wk disqualification IF it happens. For now, we are only focusing on "I was fired. My job was eliminated."
We're going to work in steps so that you're not all over the place telling a confusing story with a lot of moving pieces hoping that something will stick.
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