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Old 03-05-2010, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
23,133 posts, read 49,166,705 times
Reputation: 17643

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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_in_atl View Post
It really needs to be pointed out that there are no countries in Europe that currently employ socialism as the basis of their economy or society. None!

Here in the US the term "Socialism" is used by certain corners of the political spectrum to describe anything that is not 100% unfettered, unregulated capitalism.

Instead practically all countries in Europe subscribe, to a more or lesser extent, to what is called "Ordoliberalism" or "Social Market Economy".

In short: "The social market economy seeks a market economic system rejecting both socialism and laissez-faire capitalism, combining private enterprise with measures of government regulation to establish fair competition, low inflation, low levels of unemployment, a standard of working conditions, and social welfare. Nominally respecting the free market, the social market economy is opposed to both a strictly planned economy and laissez-faire capitalism. The term "social" was chosen rather than "socialist" to distinguish the social market economy from a system in which the state directed economic activity and/or owned the means of production which are privately-owned in this model. In a social market economy, collective bargaining is often done on a national level not between one corporation and one union, but national employers' organizations and national trade unions." [source: Wiki]

I think it is important to not let ideologues cloud the public discussion by knowingly misuse certain terms and definitions, and ultimately misuse language.
Thank you for that, Matt.

Ordoliberalism or Social Market Economy - I had not heard either of those terms previously and neither have 80% of the voters in this country, I would venture. Which is why the politicians can continually obfuscate the issues and mislead the public with their party parrot lingo and hotbutton soundbites - controlling the electorate through fear.

Last edited by Ariadne22; 03-05-2010 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:55 PM
 
3,739 posts, read 4,139,679 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt_in_atl View Post
What is this FREEDOM that you are talking about? The freedom to suffer, starve, not have a roof over your head, let alone health care? The freedom to loose everything?
Thank you!
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
475 posts, read 1,510,346 times
Reputation: 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariadne22 View Post
Thank you for that.

The Europeans have their priorities straight and a totally different view on how to live. They have thousands of years of history. Quality of life, otherwise known as happiness, takes precedence over profit. In many of the socialistic countries, the people are happier. 60 minutes did a show on one of the Scandanavian countries a while back, asking the people if they were upset with their high taxes. Everyone said no, they were very happy. They knew they would be educated, have medical care and a respectable retirement.

We'll probably get there someday - hopefully sooner than we expect.
O yea, the land of milk and honey and the streets are paved with gold. I'll wager the Europeans have the same amount of social problems as the US.

I hear the grass is greener over there too.

Dick
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:27 PM
 
357 posts, read 726,793 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dick1973 View Post
O yea, the land of milk and honey and the streets are paved with gold. I'll wager the Europeans have the same amount of social problems as the US.

I hear the grass is greener over there too.

Dick
I agree with you, for once.

That European Union is really working out great for them, isn't it? Just ask Greece who is going to be forced into selling off some islands and their ancient historical artifacts and landmarks to the highest bidder! All so they can continue to be slaves to the IMF and World Bank.
The Europeans are being screwed over and robbed by the same globalist elite and banksters we are.
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Old 03-05-2010, 08:50 PM
 
83 posts, read 130,832 times
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I am a European Citizen and very, very proud of my country.
We'll deal with the Greek "crisis", no doubt about it, and be stronger for it.

I am also an American: I am less proud of this country of mine as it deals with adversity.
Any suggestions?



Quote:
Originally Posted by ozlo View Post
I agree with you, for once.

That European Union is really working out great for them, isn't it? Just ask Greece who is going to be forced into selling off some islands and their ancient historical artifacts and landmarks to the highest bidder! All so they can continue to be slaves to the IMF and World Bank.
The Europeans are being screwed over and robbed by the same globalist elite and banksters we are.
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Old 03-06-2010, 05:35 AM
 
100 posts, read 284,693 times
Reputation: 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by ozlo View Post
I agree with you, for once.

That European Union is really working out great for them, isn't it? Just ask Greece who is going to be forced into selling off some islands and their ancient historical artifacts and landmarks to the highest bidder! All so they can continue to be slaves to the IMF and World Bank.
The Europeans are being screwed over and robbed by the same globalist elite and banksters we are.
Do you know that all over the country, roads (that we paid for) are being sold to private companies, many of them foreign, so that they can install tolls and profit off once public infrastructure? This is happening with parking meters, the list goes on. And most people mumble 'efficiency' and play along. In Greece, they will NOT hand over their islands to corrupt financial schemes that have left them in debt to international banks, you watch, even though yes, that's what the crooks are demanding right now. There is a huge difference in Americans and the rest of the world... Americans are easily fooled. The Greeks, and most of the rest of the world, know corruption when they see it. That's why they're not buying the nonsense, and taking to the streets, fighting for their sovereignty. People here are shockingly naive about what's happening in the world and won't realize it until they have nothing left.
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:59 AM
 
357 posts, read 726,793 times
Reputation: 343
Quote:
Originally Posted by coronadeluxe View Post
Do you know that all over the country, roads (that we paid for) are being sold to private companies, many of them foreign, so that they can install tolls and profit off once public infrastructure? This is happening with parking meters, the list goes on. And most people mumble 'efficiency' and play along. In Greece, they will NOT hand over their islands to corrupt financial schemes that have left them in debt to international banks, you watch, even though yes, that's what the crooks are demanding right now. There is a huge difference in Americans and the rest of the world... Americans are easily fooled. The Greeks, and most of the rest of the world, know corruption when they see it. That's why they're not buying the nonsense, and taking to the streets, fighting for their sovereignty. People here are shockingly naive about what's happening in the world and won't realize it until they have nothing left.
Yes, I am well aware of it and have been since before they had to publicly admit the North American Union existed. I agree that in parts of Europe the people are more aware of what is going on and will not go down without a fight. They got the European Union, though, even though most of the countries' populations were against joining.

However, some people on this forum live in some fantasy world in which their homeland has a benevolent government who only cares for its people and their brand of -ism is best. Yet communism, socialism, fascism, and our current rigged, anti-free-market system masquerading as "capitalism" were all designed by the same bankers pillaging the world today! In some ways, they are a bit more free in Europe than the US is today, but we are all still slaves under the same powers that be and not as free as we should be. True freedom will not come until we throw them off our backs!
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:56 PM
 
103 posts, read 119,372 times
Reputation: 16
Interested workers should be able to buy added insurance so that they are not solely dependent on washington politicians. When we have a culture where people dont save atleast we should have insurance. Not only that..job markets are changing too fast and there is a sharp learning curve for a lot of jobs...they dont make it if they are in financial distress. Unemployment insurance is sometimes not sufficient and people cannot plan for education and job search if it is not managed properly. It can severly affect millions of people.

This is not a matter of debate..this is a real problem faced by lot of people and to be treated with humanity and compassion. Somebody may be smart and may be blessed with intelligence and wealth but not all of them are like that. There are lots of people who need help to get jobs and get their life back.
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:05 PM
 
83 posts, read 130,832 times
Reputation: 183
You mean, for example, like health-insurance? In which case one is getting screwed over time-and-a-half if there really ever is a claim...

Certain functions of society do not belong in the private, for-profit domain: (i) internal and external security; (ii) anything health-related short of pharmaceutical R&D; (iii) social services incl. UI; (iv) power and transportation grid; (v) basic communication infrastructure incl. postal services.

PERIOD.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lpavitram View Post
Interested workers should be able to buy added insurance so that they are not solely dependent on washington politicians. When we have a culture where people dont save atleast we should have insurance. Not only that..job markets are changing too fast and there is a sharp learning curve for a lot of jobs...they dont make it if they are in financial distress. Unemployment insurance is sometimes not sufficient and people cannot plan for education and job search if it is not managed properly. It can severly affect millions of people.

This is not a matter of debate..this is a real problem faced by lot of people and to be treated with humanity and compassion. Somebody may be smart and may be blessed with intelligence and wealth but not all of them are like that. There are lots of people who need help to get jobs and get their life back.
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Old 03-10-2010, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
23,133 posts, read 49,166,705 times
Reputation: 17643
Given the financial holocaust of the past two plus years and the jobless recovery, why would any insurance company offer this coverage? No job is secure, no company is secure. The bankers caused this overnight crash with their house of cards gambling and everyone else is paying the price. And they are back to their old tricks with no regulation in place.

No way to actuarially evaluate the risk - at all. Won't happen.
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