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Old 01-24-2011, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox73 View Post
Yes I've had two ndes and several other experiences (outside of ndes) that would be considered 'paranormal' events. I've also had extremely negative experiences with name calling from atheist 'skeptics' and have been accused of lying or fabricating details when they couldn't personally debunk my experiences. I've also had very negative experiences with diehard religonists when my personal experiences didn't match what their Bibles or religions tell them (Christians generally only want to believe they're saved so they get upset when evidence from ndes is the dead opposite) so in the end nothing gets gained from talking about these types of experiences. Yes I learnt this the hardway that ndes and other personal spiritual matters are best kept to yourself or those the closest to you.

However for my own personal reasons and experiences (I was skeptical myself at one time) this link is probally the most accurate take of what happens when you really die. Sorry to disappoint you religionists who believe your way is the only way. VICTOR ZAMMIT -- The Book - 29. What happens When we Die?

It could be like the Babylonian experience of the after-life in some dark and murky place. Sad is it? It is for too many privileges. No?
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Old 01-24-2011, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Back in the Southland
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yes I have, There were mindless zombies everywhere all listening to something. I soon realized that what the mindless zombie people were listening too was propaganda but for some reason they still sat there and listened intently. I then realized that that they were believing the propaganda and then all of a sudden there zombie like heads went down and no one spoke it was a horror to witness....wait a minute that was the last time I went to church. Never mind I have never had a near death experience
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Old 01-26-2011, 02:59 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,641,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
You are magnetically coupled to your physical body temporarily. When it dies you will continue to exist, just not on earth. As such, when you dream, have a NDE, or astral project, you are changing your focus from the physical realm to the astral. Your body stays right where it is in the physical but what you really are is infact somewhere else.
A nice fairy tale but it strikes me that just because you can tell a story, the story does not magically become true. You have provided nothing, literally, to suggest any of that is true.

There is, clearly, a conception in people that if they can make up a story and insert into it sciencey sounding words like "magnetic" and "astral" they the story somehow becomes more true. It however does not.

So no, nothing you have said holds any credibility, nor has anything you said lended it any credence. You simply appear to think it is true, because you say it is true.

It did however serve the purpose of being quite amusing, and I appreciate the giggle. Thanks.
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Old 01-26-2011, 05:54 PM
 
2,191 posts, read 4,402,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
A nice fairy tale but it strikes me that just because you can tell a story, the story does not magically become true. You have provided nothing, literally, to suggest any of that is true.

There is, clearly, a conception in people that if they can make up a story and insert into it sciencey sounding words like "magnetic" and "astral" they the story somehow becomes more true. It however does not.

So no, nothing you have said holds any credibility, nor has anything you said lended it any credence. You simply appear to think it is true, because you say it is true.

It did however serve the purpose of being quite amusing, and I appreciate the giggle. Thanks.
I'm glad you're amused but projecting is as real as me sitting here typing this. It is nothing like dreaming because you will have a higher level of conscious awareness. Why don't you try projecting yourself before just calling it a fairy tale though? The only possible reasons I can see for you not trying is laziness or fear. You shouldn't be arguing about something being invalid when it's very easy to try for yourself. I'm not asking you to part the Red sea, I'm just asking you to try a few simple things.

Here is one of the most simple ways to attempt it. Before bed at night you need to stare at the precise details of something so that it burns an image into your mind. Normally about 20 to 30 minutes each night will do the trick. Pick one or two objects around your house that are outside of your bedroom (assuming you sleep there). Anything will work. Some good examples are a pencil, a painting, your favorite couch, a candle, etc... When you study this object make sure you take in every single detail of it. Smell it, touch the entire thing, notice any details that stand out and walk around it taking in all the angles. The more active you get in "noticing" the object the easier it will be to recall later on.

The next step is to go to bed however, instead of drifting off to sleep like you normally do, you would recall and concentrate on the objects you were studying before bed. Deeply imagine yourself studying and interacting with those objects just like you were before bed. In effect, this allows your body to drift off to sleep while you keep your mind awake. It sometimes takes practice but I managed to do it after one week of trying this method.

What should happen next is you will feel like you suddenly woke up and are hearing loud vibrational noises or roaring. It will probably freak you out and you will snap out of it or fall asleep. You have to try to remain calm when this happens. All you have to do when you hit the vibrational stage is allow the feeling to encompass your entire body, then tell yourself to go to another area of your home. If that doesn't work simply ask for help and someone will pull you out of your body.

And that's pretty much it. After that you will be walking or floating around your house while you clearly see your body is laying in bed. Anyone can do this and this is the easy part. The hard part is learning how to navigate and what is actually "out there". To get back in your body, all you have to do is think about it and you will instantly be back in bed inside your physical body.

Now you can either try it for yourself and see that it's real or you can just sit on here all day calling it stupid and laughing. Either way it doesn't change the fact that it is real and you can prove it to yourself by simply giving it a try. Putting in the "work" of studying the same objects everyday before bed is key though. I can also tell you about a dozen other ways to project but this method is easier for beginners.
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Old 01-27-2011, 06:33 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,641,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
I'm glad you're amused but projecting is as real as me sitting here typing this.
And being Napoleaon and/or Jesus reincarnated is just as real to the people who claim to be such as they are sitting there scratching their nose. Anecdote is not evidence and simply because you say something is real… that does not magically mean it is.

If I were to lend credence to everyone solely because they claim what they are saying is real to THEM... I would have to believe just about anything and everything!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
Why don't you try projecting yourself before just calling it a fairy tale though?
East. My answer is that I do not do it for the exact same reasons I do not go and sit in corn fields to try and get abducted by aliens before I dismiss the claims that our citizens are being abducted as a prelude to alien invasion.

That reason is that your claim is not just a little… but ENTIRELY unsubstantiated so there is no cause for me to go trying to verify it myself at this time.

There are literally billions of people on this planet present and past and they among them have made literally billions of claims. The substantiation for those claims runs from literally nothing… to a little… to moderate… to lots. There is too many claims for me to independently verify all of them even if I were to live another 100,000 years.

Therefore the likelihood of me attempting to verify a claim will be DIRECTLY proportional to how much credence the claim has when it comes before me. The more it has, the more likely I am to engage with it.

Your claim has literally NO credibility or supporting argument EXCEPT you saying “It is real to me”. This puts it right down the bottom of my list for independent verification. If however you want to present some actual evidence, argument, data or reasons that lends even a modicum of credence to what you are saying, then of course it would move up that list.

You have not and likely can not do this however.

As for Lucid dreaming however which was also mentioned. I am aware of it and have engaged in it.... quite successfully too. Being able to dream lucidly is not the same as your claims that you are going to some other kind of plane etc etc.

Lucid dreaming is a well known, well documented phenomenon and is as you say easy to engage in should you put the effort in.

But while you may happily be dreaming that you are outside your body, moving around, and can look back at your body... this is NOT evidence that this is actually happening anywhere but in your head. THAT is the laughable part at this time.
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Old 01-27-2011, 04:22 PM
 
2,191 posts, read 4,402,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
And being Napoleaon and/or Jesus reincarnated is just as real to the people who claim to be such as they are sitting there scratching their nose. Anecdote is not evidence and simply because you say something is real… that does not magically mean it is.

If I were to lend credence to everyone solely because they claim what they are saying is real to THEM... I would have to believe just about anything and everything!



East. My answer is that I do not do it for the exact same reasons I do not go and sit in corn fields to try and get abducted by aliens before I dismiss the claims that our citizens are being abducted as a prelude to alien invasion.

That reason is that your claim is not just a little… but ENTIRELY unsubstantiated so there is no cause for me to go trying to verify it myself at this time.

There are literally billions of people on this planet present and past and they among them have made literally billions of claims. The substantiation for those claims runs from literally nothing… to a little… to moderate… to lots. There is too many claims for me to independently verify all of them even if I were to live another 100,000 years.

Therefore the likelihood of me attempting to verify a claim will be DIRECTLY proportional to how much credence the claim has when it comes before me. The more it has, the more likely I am to engage with it.

Your claim has literally NO credibility or supporting argument EXCEPT you saying “It is real to me”. This puts it right down the bottom of my list for independent verification. If however you want to present some actual evidence, argument, data or reasons that lends even a modicum of credence to what you are saying, then of course it would move up that list.

You have not and likely can not do this however.

As for Lucid dreaming however which was also mentioned. I am aware of it and have engaged in it.... quite successfully too. Being able to dream lucidly is not the same as your claims that you are going to some other kind of plane etc etc.

Lucid dreaming is a well known, well documented phenomenon and is as you say easy to engage in should you put the effort in.

But while you may happily be dreaming that you are outside your body, moving around, and can look back at your body... this is NOT evidence that this is actually happening anywhere but in your head. THAT is the laughable part at this time.

You can have a full blown astral projection experience from a lucid dream. All you have to do is start focusing on an object in the dream to bring onboard all of your senses then ask for things like "clarity" and "awareness" to have it become as real as physical waking reality. Projecting is not, I repeat, is not lucid dreaming. I am not dreaming that I step out of my body and stare back down at it. How could anyone reliably dream that on a daily basis anyhow? It is nothing like a dream or lucid dream. You have to experience it for yourself in order to see that it's real. You choose not to. Fine by me but you're basically saying it's impossible without even giving it a fair chance (and it's pretty simple to do once you get the hang of it).

How can you say that the claim is unsubstantiated when there are millions, if not billions, of people who claim to have experienced NDE's as well as astral projection? That should be a big enough question mark for you to give something a go.

I'm not claiming that astral projection is only "real to me". It's real to anyone who attempts it. Anyone who tries it will eventually have the exact same experiences that I've been talking about, including you. If you were to try it a few times and hit the vibrational phase, you would have no other choice than to accept that it is real.
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Old 01-27-2011, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,618 posts, read 11,896,473 times
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Jason, a couple of logical points: the currently ongoing experiment (since 2008 I believe) being conducted in several eastern hospitals where they ask if people going into deep surgery if they might wish to participate in an NDE experiment.

Simple bottom line: if they say, happily, yes, first of all it indicates they are predisposed. Then, they are told that there will be a sealed box in another room with (or not with) anything inside. Then the respondents almost always get a bit edgy, since they thought they would only have to tell a good yarn they'd talked themselves into believing, and perhaps get some temporary glory.

Bottom line, so far; ZERO success on the few tens of participants who did, in fact, temporarily lapse into a near-coma like state, which a few years back was classified (important distinction) as having technically died. Of course, having seen too many people supposedly dead, but then recover, esp. when they were immersed and drowned in very cold water, medical science has now re-defined death as (if I recall the details exactly) having no detectable brainwaves for > 1 hour, and with a core body temp drop to < 88˚f for > 2 hours, plus, of course, no pulse and no intermediary artificial support systems.

When you're that dead, you're really dead. No coming back. God or not. Never.

Next point; why don't you have your spouse, significant other or mother hide some object in a box for you, and you can see if you astro-project from your bedroom and go see what it is. Simple, huh?

Finally, your body is in no way magnetically attached to your soul. if so, a trip into the MRI machine, where the gravitational density so so high that it effectively temporarily magnetizes the water molecules in your body, would tear such a cosy little co-dependent relationship asunder.

Sorry; human tissue is not inherently "magnetic". That's solely a property of certain ferrous materials.

Too bad though. It makes such a nifty bed-time story, especially for those who insist we don't know everything, so it must be true! Oh ,and you having really REALLY imagined it also does not make it so. Only a reproducible test, which by now would have been successfully done many times over, would allow us to make that statement.
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Old 01-27-2011, 06:51 PM
 
2,191 posts, read 4,402,653 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Jason, a couple of logical points: the currently ongoing experiment (since 2008 I believe) being conducted in several eastern hospitals where they ask if people going into deep surgery if they might wish to participate in an NDE experiment.

Simple bottom line: if they say, happily, yes, first of all it indicates they are predisposed. Then, they are told that there will be a sealed box in another room with (or not with) anything inside. Then the respondents almost always get a bit edgy, since they thought they would only have to tell a good yarn they'd talked themselves into believing, and perhaps get some temporary glory.

Bottom line, so far; ZERO success on the few tens of participants who did, in fact, temporarily lapse into a near-coma like state, which a few years back was classified (important distinction) as having technically died. Of course, having seen too many people supposedly dead, but then recover, esp. when they were immersed and drowned in very cold water, medical science has now re-defined death as (if I recall the details exactly) having no detectable brainwaves for > 1 hour, and with a core body temp drop to < 88˚f for > 2 hours, plus, of course, no pulse and no intermediary artificial support systems.

When you're that dead, you're really dead. No coming back. God or not. Never.

Next point; why don't you have your spouse, significant other or mother hide some object in a box for you, and you can see if you astro-project from your bedroom and go see what it is. Simple, huh?

Finally, your body is in no way magnetically attached to your soul. if so, a trip into the MRI machine, where the gravitational density so so high that it effectively temporarily magnetizes the water molecules in your body, would tear such a cosy little co-dependent relationship asunder.

Sorry; human tissue is not inherently "magnetic". That's solely a property of certain ferrous materials.

Too bad though. It makes such a nifty bed-time story, especially for those who insist we don't know everything, so it must be true! Oh ,and you having really REALLY imagined it also does not make it so. Only a reproducible test, which by now would have been successfully done many times over, would allow us to make that statement.
I've tried this before and it's not that simple. Everytime I would try and interact with something I couldn't do anything with the object (like my hand would pass through it). Likewise I float right through windows and doors as if they weren't there. You can kind of see some of the stuff in the physical realm, but it really seems to go off memory and then just randomly stuff is tossed about in there. For example, last week a 12 pack of diet pepsi was by the front door when I exited the house. I can't explain why as I don't drink soda and have none in the house.

I'll try to explain this next part as easily as I can. When you're immediately outside your body thought = direct action. That being said, I've tried to do things like read a card (or something) that was lying down in another room. Whenever I would look at it, it would never be what it actually was in physical reality. For example, I put a Jack of Diamonds down and a Four of Hearts would be showing or something entirely different like green circles and a clown.

My theory on this is that because thoughts = direct action my doubts about the current environment I am actually partaking in, at that time, manifest when I attempt to validate my experience. Because of that, my mind just distorts the entire experiment.

I don't believe souls exist as that is a religous thing. I also don't know what words to use but just tossed magnetically coupled in there. I believe we are some type of greater energy beings temporarily inhabiting a physical body. All living things are including animals. I don't know too much more of our origins or how it works than that. Even if I had the scientific process explained to me, I'd probably not comprehend it.

And as far as the bed time story stuff goes, please spare me. I am not even beginning to attempt to explain everything in life such as a religion does. I'm simply saying there is an infinitely larger picture out there that people are free to explore without the prejudice and bias of humanity or religion to tell them how to interpret it. You can tell me I imagined or pretended or dreamed it all you like. The fact of the matter is, you can try the method I posted early out for yourself and see that it's real. Until then, you're listening to the almighty and all knowing "science" telling you what is or isn't real, not too unlike christians and their bible telling them how to think.

Last edited by Jason28; 01-27-2011 at 07:06 PM..
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Old 01-27-2011, 09:45 PM
 
Location: in your dreams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post

I don't believe souls exist as that is a religous thing. I also don't know what words to use but just tossed magnetically coupled in there. I believe we are some type of greater energy beings temporarily inhabiting a physical body. All living things are including animals. I don't know too much more of our origins or how it works than that. Even if I had the scientific process explained to me, I'd probably not comprehend it.
Sorry for jumping in here, but I don't feel you don't have to be religious to believe your soul exists. I'm sure it must have been a human theory before it became a religious one, right?!

I have alot of questions about life that religion does not satisfy for me personally, but I still believe in souls, I mean, I'm a human, alive on this planet RIGHT NOW!
And like you mentioned, "greater energy beings temporarily inhabiting a physical body"- I do believe that.

Dreams are a beautifully blessed experience, unique to the owner. I do not personally identify with any particular religion, though I do very much identify with The Creator, and have had many mystical dreaming experiences. The human mind is an elaborate and mysterious place to be. We may experience things that escape both the realms of religion and science...And that's awesome. But that's life and every one's is different, yet very much the same. We come from the same source, and therefore, experience through association...Ok now I'm just rambling.
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Old 01-27-2011, 10:57 PM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,641,699 times
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Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
You can have a full blown astral projection experience from a lucid dream.
Again: Says you.

Just because you are dreaming you are in another place, does not mean you are.

I have some sympathy for your delusion. There is likely few people alive over a certain age who have not at one time or another experienced an incredibly real feeling dream. It happens to nearly all of us. Most of us retain sanity however and realise that a dream is... just that... a dream.

Just because it felt real to YOU and you are convinced by this that it actually was real... constitutes literally NO evidence that it actually was.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
How could anyone reliably dream that on a daily basis anyhow?
Very easily. Recurring dreams are another very common, recognised and well documented phenomenon. There are some people who reliably have the same dream daily for years without fail and that is without even trying. You however are actively engaging in meditative techniques to ensure you have the same recurring dream which massively increases the odds of it happening.

If your evidence that you are leaving your body and going elsewhere is solely that you, like many others, have the same recurring dream then your "evidence" is even more comical than I first indicated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
You have to experience it for yourself in order to see that it's real. You choose not to.
Yeah just like I have to experience alien abduction for myself to know it is real too huh? Or have to directly experience god to know its real. This is just the standard cop out for ANYONE who has no evidence to back up their claims... they just claim that the other person merely does not WANT to see the evidence or some other cop out for why you are not presenting any.

OF course the cop out is self fulfilling too. I could engage in it for the next 20 years and come back and say "Nope, nothing happened, still no evidence" and you just come back with "Ah well, guess you just were not doing it right, it is still real though, its just YOU that failed to get it to work".

If we allowed cop outs like that from people then anything could literally be evidence for anything. You simply just cop out somehow when the evidence does not stand.

Nah your claims are amusing, good for a giggle, especially the thought that a grown man is so convinced by his own dreams that he thinks all kinds of magical things are actually happening.... but what your claims are NOT is substantiated in even the smallest way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason28 View Post
How can you say that the claim is unsubstantiated when there are millions, if not billions, of people who claim to have experienced NDE's as well as astral projection?
Now you are simply engaged in making up numbers! There is no documented statistics showing anything even CLOSE to that number of people claiming such experiences. Such experiences, and reports of them, are in fact highly rare. I would love to see some back up citation for your claimed figures, but I will not hold my breath nor be surprised when you fail to produce any.

However for those that DO have such experiences there is a wealth of explanation for them. Even when doing something compartively simply and relaxing like sleep the brain throws up in dreams all kinds of realistic imagery. That people undergoing the trauma of illness and even near death should under duress experience such imagery is not only not a surprise... it would actually be more shocking if NO ONE was reporting such experience. Such imagery in a brain under such duress is to be expected, not lauded as a miracle.... especially those who are pulled back from death by such techniques as using electricity to kick start the heart.... electricity that also sends all kinds of random surges into the brain.
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