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Old 04-04-2011, 11:35 AM
 
Location: PA
563 posts, read 848,790 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftFn View Post
why are you using so strong words, are you afraid of something ?

Mihio kaku is very incompetent physicist

'other worlds' it is religion (it isn't even philosophy) and for sure it isn't science

That statement does nothling but cost credibility.
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Old 04-04-2011, 05:32 PM
 
Location: Holland
39 posts, read 37,345 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by WonderingWanderer
That statement does nothling but cost credibility
read next sentence then you will see that mentioned sentence is true
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Old 04-05-2011, 03:14 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 11,336,315 times
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Here's a pretty classic description of an Out-Of-Body Experience:



It's hard to prove this boy's experience because there is no data to compare too. Nothing he saw was cross-checked with some who saw it physically at the same time. So it's easy to either jump to the conclusion that it is real or that it isn't real.

I also know that sometimes people DO have dreams of being out-of-body, but the details don't match, which proves it's a dream, such as in the following case:



I've had an experience like that myself where I thought I was astral-projecting but then I realized I saw my backpack on the bench at my mom's house and when I woke up it was in the same room as me. So I don't doubt that people do have dreams that closely mirror OOBE's.

But when the details of the "dream" or "hallucination" DO match reality, down to the last detail, then it's hard to know what other explanation there could be, such as in the case of the congenitally blind woman who not only saw for the first time in her life, but also saw her ring and hair just as they were in real life:



I've also had an experience like this where when I was legally blind (and had never had normal vision), I travelled outside of my body and saw my room in detail (with 20/20 vision), and now that I can see again, the details match completely. To eliminate any explanations of blindsight, the visual angles I saw myself at were impossible to experience from my physical eyes. I could see parts of my body without a mirror that can only be seen with the physical eyes by using a mirror (which I had never done before).

I understand the hallucination/dream explanation for things people see that don't match reality. But my question is, what about when what people see does match reality? Hallucinations and vivid dreams are by definition not based in reality so when people see or hear things that are based in reality then psychosis or dreaming does not provide an adequate answer.

Last edited by nimchimpsky; 04-05-2011 at 04:04 PM..
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Old 04-05-2011, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Holland
39 posts, read 37,345 times
Reputation: 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by nimchimpsky
I understand the hallucination/dream explanation for things people see that don't match reality. But my question is, what about when what people see does match reality? Hallucinations and vivid dreams are by definition not based in reality so when people see or hear things that are based in reality then psychosis or dreaming does not provide an answer.
firstly, even if there could be possible some form of perception in OOBE state, it doesn't exclude that OOBE leads to mental illness

secondly, in OOBE there can appear effect of reconstruction of reality like often in normal dreams; such relations like from books of R.A.Monroe we can treat as tales and legends

if you will try to prove that OOBE match with reality in any meaning degree you would have to represent evidence which could be empirically verified by independent experimenters - it didn't happened yet, and won't happen, because of nature of these 'experiences'

Last edited by ShiftFn; 04-05-2011 at 05:52 PM.. Reason: ortography
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:27 PM
 
10,452 posts, read 11,336,315 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShiftFn View Post
firstly, even if there could be possible some form of perception in OOBE state, it doesn't exclude that OOBE leads to mental illness
I didn't mean to imply the two are mutually exclusive.

Quote:
secondly, in OOBE there can appear effect of reconstruction of reality like often in normal dreams; such relations like from books of R.A.Monroe we can treat as tales and legends
How does a congenitally blind person reconstruct a visual experience?

Quote:
if you will try to prove that OOBE match with reality in any meaning degree you would have to represent evidence which could be empirically verified by independent experimenters - it didn't happened yet, and won't happen, because of nature of these 'experiences'
They have.

IANDS - the most reliable source of information on NDEs
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:33 AM
 
Location: PRC
4,622 posts, read 4,090,708 times
Reputation: 4136
I think the whole thing boils down to whether we have ONLY our 3D body and nothing else, or whether we have other parts which are a composite part of our whole larger being.

ie Are we a multi-dimensional being but, due to some distortions or faults, we can generally only perceive the 3D aspect of ourselves?

If this is the case, it would explain a multitude of other phenomena that are reported by people all the time.

Scientists think they need to be able to measure things for them to be 'real' or proved, but that is a very narrow viewpoint.

Rather like a 2 dimensional being only perceiving what is on the flat plane of a piece of paper. As soon as a 3 dimensional pen draws a line on the paper, it 'suddenly' appears from nowhere to the 2D being.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque, NM
93 posts, read 127,690 times
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There are some things that will not or will can not ever be explained. Science is always discovering new things. It seems that just because some people do not "sense" or "see"things that like people, they say it doesnt exist. Some people think that if it does not physically exist then it doesnt exist at all. I for one absolutely believe. there is no reason not to. if we do not know exactly 100% how the earth came to be (which is a physical object) then who are we to say that it is not possible. there so many people who have had their own personal experiences. Basically, there is no way to prove it OR disprove it.
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,124,791 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
This is the same as religious dogma, one has to first believe in ghosts before they appear to you.

At 53, I have never seen a ghost, an angel, a demon or anything supernatural. I once too believed they possibly existed but somehow they never manifested.

IMO this is just a bunch of tales of folk trying to pass credibility to things they could not explain.

This could have well been viewed as an angry god in times of yore.

Volcano lightning
I would love to perform a test. Find five people that believe in Ghosts and Five that don't Put them in a supposed haunted house and see what happens. Keep the groups separate in one test, and mix them up in another.

BTW, Awesome picture. Love that stuff. Nature is amazing.

I bet that most of the people there think they experience something paranormal. I will bet that 3 out of the 5 non ghost believers will think they see a ghost at one point.

The mind is an amazing thing. Here's a test for you. Grab some goggles and ear plugs. Make it so you can't see any thing coming through the goggles, not even the slightest amount of light.

Now, once you have the goggles set up. Put them on and put in the ear plugs. I should tell you that you might want to do this with another person present, trust me.

Have the other person set a timer for 20min. In those 20 minutes your mind will do something amazing. It will begin to hallucinate and create its own perception of things. After the 20 minutes are up, take off the goggles and ear plugs. Take it easy for a few minutes as this can be a weird experience.

You don't have to use goggles, but make sure you can still open your eyes completely. They need to stay open the whole time. If it gets too weird, please STOP!
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
32,062 posts, read 33,691,674 times
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Been there, done that, but there were no hallucinations....I was disappointed, as I think it might have been fun. I don't know what it would have to do with spooks though....
Have you ever stayed awake so long that you began to dream while still awake? I have... I suppose one could call these hallucinations, as what is real and what is not become confused....Very weird feeling!
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Old 04-07-2011, 10:25 PM
 
Location: Washingtonville
2,505 posts, read 2,124,791 times
Reputation: 441
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Been there, done that, but there were no hallucinations....I was disappointed, as I think it might have been fun. I don't know what it would have to do with spooks though....
Have you ever stayed awake so long that you began to dream while still awake? I have... I suppose one could call these hallucinations, as what is real and what is not become confused....Very weird feeling!
I have had dreams while awake, it is a very weird feeling. I would probably call these hallucinations.

And what my post has to do with spooks is that most often times when someone thinks they see a ghost, the lights are low and everything is quiet. When this happens the mind can conjure up some interesting things.

Have you ever been sitting in a completely quiet room with someone and you think you heard them say something, but they didn't?
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