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Old 10-21-2011, 02:32 PM
 
53 posts, read 46,873 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Well, as I recall Whippersnapper and theophane are generally ok in exchanges. NDE's are quite interesting but so far I haven't seen any convincing verification of the anecdotal claims. I don't reject them but just need something more definite and then soe research into what could be the cause rather that just assuming that it has to be evidence for a soul and that a soul has to be evidence for a god and a god has to be evidence for a religion.
I have a lot more respect for the people who admit it is all hearsay and conjecture and fantasy (granted, fantasy they believe in) than those who attempt to justify it on scientific grounds, then balk with outrage when you suggest they supply the proof.

There is ample, empirical, professionally tested evidence debunking NDEs. There is none in support - only subjective testimony from those who wouldn't be able to convict a murderer in court with said testimony.
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Old 10-21-2011, 06:20 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
49,672 posts, read 15,010,175 times
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I occasionally have a look for the current state of evidence. It doesn't seem to get much further that, as you say, screams of outrage that rather unsupported claims are not taken as hard evidence.

I am not swayed by attacks on the morals or motives of those supporting NDE's:

"Despite her reputation as a scientist and a medical doctor, bringing in a guy to have sex with your clients is considered unprofessional in some circles, even if the guy wears a turban. When some of the widows developed vaginal infections after these sessions, it looked as if Kübler-Ross's reputation as an expert on scientific evidence for the afterlife was damaged for good.

. If Moody is to be believed, no one near death has had a horrifying experience. Yet, "according to some estimates as many as 15 percent of NDEs are hellish"

making extraordinary claims that can't be disproved won't hurt Dr. Saborn's book or Reynolds's record sales"

Getting all prurient or hinting 'he's only doing it for the money' is ad hom and not relevant to the debate. It doesn't discount the arguments put forward. Nor does pointing up selective evidence for a particular brand of afterlife discredit the evidence (such as it is) for some kind of afterlife. But:

"What little research there has been in this field indicates that the experiences Moody lists as typical of the NDE may be due to brain states triggered by cardiac arrest and anesthesia (Blackmore 1993). Furthermore, many people who have not been near death have had experiences that seem identical to NDEs, e.g., fighter pilots experiencing rapid acceleration. Other mimicking experiences may be the result of psychosis (due to severe neurochemical imbalance) or drug usage, such as hashish, LSD, or DMT.

A 13-year Dutch study led by Pim van Lommel and published in Lancet found that 12 percent (or 18 percent, depending on how NDE is defined) of 344 resuscitated patients who had experienced cessation of their heart and/or breathing function reported an NDE

.. her brain patterns, when she was asked to imagine herself playing tennis or moving around her home, displayed the same activated cortical areas in a manner indistinguishable from that of the healthy volunteers.*

It is possible that the soul leaves the body, but it is not necessary to posit a soul to explain these experiences."

Thus the NDE evidence is really not that persuasive. as for the stories:

"Furthermore, NDE stories are now known to a large audience. Thus, when new stories are told about going into the light, etc., one has to be concerned that these stories may have been contaminated. They may reflect what one has heard and what one expects.

One way to avoid contamination of stories has been developed by University of North Texas professor Dr. Jan Holden.* She designed an experiment in which a laptop computer that opens flat hangs from the ceiling with the screen facing away from the floor. Her husband developed a software program that produces a series of animations. If a patient claims to have been floating above her body on the operating table, then she ought to have seen the computer screen and be able to report on what she saw. Dr. Bruce Greyson has apparently been using this protocol for a few years but so far has not reported anything of interest."
near-death experience (NDE) - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

There was a recent high profile story of an NDE subject seeing all sorts of things only a floating entity could see. This seems to remain annoyingly unverified and anecdotal.

"The most ignored facts that NDE cynics gloss over are those that occur in the out-of-body phase of the NDE. There is no way possible that brain chemistry can be argued when a person is verifiably DEAD, yet can tell everyone later what was said or happening down the hall, away from sight and earshot, during the time of resuscitation efforts"

NDE Rhetoric (http://www.nderf.org/NDE%20Rhetoric.htm - broken link)

I have to say that this is the only part of this site supporting NDE's that adduces any potentially real evidence (though still apparently anecdotal) . the rest is just rhetorical attempts to get anecdotal evidence, reversing the burden of proof and dickering about definitions accepted as some sort valid evidence which it isn't.

"One common example is of a woman in Seattle named only “Maria” who claims to have seen a tennis shoe on a hospital roof. The interesting thing about this story is that there is only one witness, and that witness is a social worker, Kimberly Clark Sharp who also had an NDE and who feels that Maria's tale was so compelling she started a foundation to study NDEs.."

Debunking Christianity: The Essential Nuttiness of Near-Death Experiences as Evidence for the Supernatural

I won't review the strings of sites attacking skeptics for not being unquestioningly gullible but just say that it looks like many of these claims supporting (broadly) the theist case only look convincing if one doesn't look too closely or require better than anecdotal evidence.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:18 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 11,666,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayDick View Post
A perfectly rational, reasonable comment on the thread, and the response from theists.

Cue whippersnapper or theophane one of the other theists to barge in and call you rude and hostile.

For some, listening to truth is tantamount to self-flagellation.
Why do I always feel the need to explain myself on here? I am not theist!

I will not however, discount the possiblity of an external creator. Does that make me a theist? Maybe it does. It doesn't mean that I neccesarily think there is, and I certainly am not one to claim that I KNOW there is.

Keep in mind though, that there are Atheists on here who hold the same position. { few and far betweeen yes }

Check your facts before you go on a rant next time and call posters out individualy on something OK?

P.S.
There are big, make that HUGE differences between myself and Theophanes worldview. Not even comparable.

Last edited by WhipperSnapper 88; 10-21-2011 at 07:32 PM..
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 11,666,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Coming back after 10 pages, I see the usual wrangles with responses to requests for some sort of case eliciting a response of well you people think everything came from nothing. .
Not sure if this was directed at this post........

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Wha Whaa Whaaaaaaa
But my above post was directed at the humor in this post......

Quote:
Originally Posted by catman View Post
I think the common experience of a bright light during a NDE may simply be that it is an hallucination caused by the brain malfunctioning. The religious will interpret it as God, Heaven, etc, while nonbelievers will interpret it differently.

I recall that when I was about ten years old, a friend told me that he dreamed that he died and the heat woke him up,

but upon awakening found that his electric blanket was turned up too high.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:24 PM
 
53 posts, read 46,873 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Why do I always feel the need to explain myself on here? I am not theist!

I will not however, discount the possiblity of an external creator. Does that make me a theist? Maybe it does. It doesn't mean that I neccesarily think there is, and I certainly am not one to claim that I KNOW there is.

Keep in mind though, that there are Atheists on here who hold the same position. { few and far betweeen yes }

Check your facts before you go on a rant next time and call posters out individualy on something OK?

P.S.
There are big, make that HUGE differences between myself and Theophanes worldview. Not even comparable.
I saw the same baseless attack on an anti-NDE poster from both of you. Just figured you held the same shoot-first-proselytize-later philosophy as him.
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Old 10-21-2011, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 11,666,024 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JayDick View Post
I saw the same baseless attack on an anti-NDE poster from both of you. Just figured you held the same shoot-first-proselytize-later philosophy as him.
Again, not a theist, so no reason to proselytize...........

Baseless attack? Your gonna have to give me a post number or quote as I am just now rejoining the discussion after a couple months ago. However, rude is rude and doesn't contribute positively to a productive conversation.

Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 10-22-2011 at 08:54 PM..
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Old 10-22-2011, 02:39 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
49,672 posts, read 15,010,175 times
Reputation: 5779
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
Not sure if this was directed at this post........

"Originally Posted by AREQUIPA
Coming back after 10 pages, I see the usual wrangles with responses to requests for some sort of case eliciting a response of well you people think everything came from nothing."


But my above post was directed at the humor in this post......
Not specifically. It was just what impression remained after catching up through 10 pages.

In fact I don't always recall whether a poster is theist, atheist or something in between. I prefer not to start a reply by going into 'this guy is a theist - disagree with him' mode. I don't reject 'god' as a possibility and haven't for decades. I have just considered the best arguments and evidence for 'god' and have to conclude that they don't make a convincing case. Not for me, anyway. That seems the same as your position.

I take the same position on personal gods too, essentially.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 10-22-2011 at 02:56 AM..
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Old 10-22-2011, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Ohio
13,900 posts, read 11,666,024 times
Reputation: 7263
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Not specifically. It was just what impression remained after catching up through 10 pages.

In fact I don't always recall whether a poster is theist, atheist or something in between. I prefer not to start a reply by going into 'this guy is a theist - disagree with him' mode.
Thats smart. If only everyone here did it the same way, Ithink there would be less arguing and more conversating.

Quote:
I don't reject 'god' as a possibility and haven't for decades. I have just considered the best arguments and evidence for 'god' and have to conclude that they don't make a convincing case. Not for me, anyway. That seems the same as your position.

I take the same position on personal gods too, essentially
Pretty much yes. I think there is much that we agree on.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:10 AM
 
1 posts, read 579 times
Reputation: 11
“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:13 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,672,938 times
Reputation: 2979
You resurrected a 3 month old thread in order to post an empty and meaningless cliche?

I wonder if the thread saw a bright light before it came back from its near death.
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