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Old 02-04-2012, 10:20 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,644,981 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Maybe you should cut, paste and save your answer somewhere, so you don't have to keep re-typing it!
I already do. I post a LOT on many many forums and much of what I post is old text pasted. I spend very little time actually typing new stuff until it makes sense to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Can either of you agree that some things just can't be proven?
Not really. I can agree there are things we can not understand, answer or prove TODAY but that does not mean they can not be done. Science does not work that way. We do not know the future, or what we might or might not learn in the future. So there is no basis on which to suggest something can never be prove or answered.

We can talk about the data we have today and we can hypothesis about the future. As soon as you make any statement, positive or negative, about what we will or will not know in the future however.... you have stopped talking reality and have started talking fantasy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
It seems that when a person claimes to have seen something not from this world, most ahtheist quickly assume that person is either lying, or they are delusional.
No such assumptions are required. Take the sensation of being outside ones own body for example. We know what that is. We know what causes it. We can replicate it almost at will. It is perfectly natural and we understand it.

So when someone experiences this in a hospital while nearly dying then I have no doubt they really did experience it. I believe them. I do not think they are delusional. None of that.

But saying I believe they had the experience they describe is NOT the same as saying that I believe their interpretation of those experiences. We know what makes a person feel like being outside their body.... but there is nothing in that to suggest they ever actually DID leave their body, no matter how convincing the sensation was to them at the time.
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Old 02-04-2012, 01:41 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,313,717 times
Reputation: 1047
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post

Not really. I can agree there are things we can not understand, answer or prove TODAY but that does not mean they can not be done. Science does not work that way. We do not know the future, or what we might or might not learn in the future. So there is no basis on which to suggest something can never be prove or answered.

We can talk about the data we have today and we can hypothesis about the future. As soon as you make any statement, positive or negative, about what we will or will not know in the future however.... you have stopped talking reality and have started talking fantasy.



No such assumptions are required. Take the sensation of being outside ones own body for example. We know what that is. We know what causes it. We can replicate it almost at will. It is perfectly natural and we understand it.

So when someone experiences this in a hospital while nearly dying then I have no doubt they really did experience it. I believe them. I do not think they are delusional. None of that.

But saying I believe they had the experience they describe is NOT the same as saying that I believe their interpretation of those experiences. We know what makes a person feel like being outside their body.... but there is nothing in that to suggest they ever actually DID leave their body, no matter how convincing the sensation was to them at the time.

1- When I was talking about not being able to prove something, I was thinking more of things that don't leave physical evidence behind. More specificially words. For example, if you and I have a conversation and then you deny that you said something that I clearly heard you say, I would not be able to prove that you did say it.

I can't at this moment articulate how my example might relate to religious arguments. Maybe I never will. I am sure some will say there is no relevence. But I suspect there is some relevence somewhere. Hopefully by now you know me well enough to know that I won't try to "prove" anything to you with scientific explanations. I just share my thoughts/questions when something you've said (or someone else has said) triggers a question or thought.

2- I believe some of those explanations and do find them interesting.
If you have any cut and pastes handy on any of those, I'd love to see them! It's okay if you don't or don't want to. I may get around to fishing for some info on that myself one of these days.
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Old 02-04-2012, 03:30 PM
 
2,665 posts, read 2,350,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
What the hell about quantum physics dictates that a creator needs to be involved?
Quantum mechanics seems to show that our reality isn't as it appears. Rather than objective physical existence, it seems it may very well be a calculated simulation. Such a thing requires a creator. Note, however, that such a thing, even if proven beyond a shadow of doubt, does not validate religion, only that we exist as a subset of some larger system. As it exists outside of our space and time, we can't get there from here, so we can't know anything about it.

A little light reading on the subject: http://brianwhitworth.com/BW-VRT1.pdf
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Old 02-04-2012, 09:54 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
32,002 posts, read 33,603,858 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
Quantum mechanics seems to show that our reality isn't as it appears. Rather than objective physical existence, it seems it may very well be a calculated simulation. Such a thing requires a creator. Note, however, that such a thing, even if proven beyond a shadow of doubt, does not validate religion, only that we exist as a subset of some larger system. As it exists outside of our space and time, we can't get there from here, so we can't know anything about it.

A little light reading on the subject: http://brianwhitworth.com/BW-VRT1.pdf
Sounds like Whitworth's hypothesis would be a good theme for a sci fi movie.
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:53 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,618 posts, read 11,901,814 times
Reputation: 3747
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
...I can answer it indirectly by telling you what I think "evidence" is. I think it is a process, not a thing, as follows:

1) State clearly exactly what your claim is.
2) State clearly exactly what you think supports that claim.
3) Explain clearly how what was listed in 2 supports what was claimed in 1.

Simples. Alas a lot of people on here appear to think the process is:

1) Vaugely make a very unclear claim and then call it "god".
2) List some stuff and run.

The best I can do is simply be open to consider and discuss anything that is offered to me.
You could also add to your second list of two items, the third:

3) Refuse to answer objective and polite questions that are specific and expository about the God under debate. Then throw in an ad-hominem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
Nos,
Can either of you agree that some things just can't be proven?

For example, a person can't always prove that they saw what they saw.
I'm not claiming that I've every "seen" anything, but clearly some people do say this.

It seems that when a person claimes to have seen something not from this world, most atheist quickly assume that person is either lying, or they are delusional.
The problem is that when someone claims to have had, let's say, an experience, but then goes on to claim that the event is or was, absolutely, PROOF OF a deity, this just doesn't cut it. If such a thing were possible, why would it only happen to just one person, from a God who supposedly loves all 7B of us?

And when it's logically reviewed, and we do, in fact, find "the man behind the curtain", what would you have us believe in light of such exposures? To just forget them and go into auto-default Godly belief mode?

Sorry. We're too skeptical for that.

And then, to top it all off, when we do systematically investigate all the outrageous and illogical claims for a God, and find only contradictions, conundra and calamity, we also usually find rational valid and non-Godly explanations or at least potentially possible and rational hypotheses. What woud you have us do then? Ignore those options and toss them out the window in favor of an irrational and unsupported faith-based belief?

Your committed dislike of what science finds and how it logically works it's way through quandaries is not enough reason on it's own for us to convert to a belief in a thoroughly disproven God. To just believe in something because you feel, on a very intense level, that it's true, or that you were raised to that belief but absent any critical review of it, seems to be only because you WANT it to be true, and is certainly not sufficient grounds for us to abandon reason and intellect, now is it?

Especially when so many of us where actually once Christian believers and know how "the system" works. You guys act as though we've not been through your belief system's proofs and management system! But by comparison, how many of you have ever conducted a solid reeserch and investigation team, or written a scientific paper and had it reviewed, and had your share of failed, but also successful, hypotheses? Hmmm? How many?

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I respect your point of view and your conclusions.

When people say there is a scientific explanation for the white lights. I consider what they say and I don't dismiss it. There probably are valid scientific explanations for that. Fair enuf.

But, I have suspected...and what you say here, tends to reinforce my suspicion, that even if God himself stood in front of you and said "I am here! Touch me! And even if He performed half a dozen miracles in front of your* face, you would probably dimiss it as a hallucination.

I would take it a step further and say, even if HE left some sort of physical DNA evidence behind and "proof" certain atheist would STILL find a way to say "this is not proof, this is not what it appears to be".

* "you" meaning some (maybe most) atheists.
Wrong. The point is to date that science has indeed rather thoroughly investigated the inexplicable, the supernatural and the outright illogical with an open mind, but since there are essentially no new proofs materializing any more from the theist side, aside from re-hashes of very out of date stuff, or of purposeful mis-quotes about Henry Gee for instance, what are we then to conclude?

That in fact a state of desperation has truly sunk in with theists?

Why is it that you guys never grow skeptical? Why is it that, in light of any new evidence as to how the real world actually works absent any Godly intervention, you still steadfastly refuse to consider this possibility, or even answer our polite and open questions? Or theists claim to have had their feelings hurt and then seek some philosophical rock to hide under? WhyIzzZhat, pray tell?

(Oh My! There's yet another question. Let's see if you answer it openly and honestly!)

Finally, you mentioned "what if God left off some DNA evidence...etc etc.". What do you mean buy "God left"? you guys claim this all the time, but thee's absolutely no evidence at all for any Godly visits or donations.

Points are: 1) many Christians once wouldn't even believe there was DNA ("it's only a theory" Ever heard that tired refrain from your fellow Christians?), or later, that it controls our phenotype (how we look and how we operate) through our genotype (the arrangements and sequences of our, yup, DNA...). But given the inevitability of it's existence and proofs of how it works and mutates, many theists now seem to want to claim that they believed it all along, and it's OBVIOUSLY God's Design work, since they are all in AWE of it, and "it's far to complex to have evolved all on it's own!" Which btw, is all scientifically illiterate rubbish.

Have a good night. Or morning...

Last edited by rifleman; 02-05-2012 at 03:08 AM..
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Old 02-05-2012, 08:23 AM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,313,717 times
Reputation: 1047
I'll have to reply to this in parts. Sorry, I should have logged of about 10 minutes ago!But I have to reply to a couple of things now.

First of all, when you say "you're" are you referring to me specifically, or religious people in general?

Second, regarding your first paragraph, I can agree that maybe using the word "proof" in these matters is probably not a good choice of words. Which is why I said, we can't always "prove" things.

Perhaps it would be better for a person to say "this is the reason I choose to believe and this is my perception of what happened" if you don't choose to inerpret things the same way that's your choice and I don't "expect you to believe anything you don't want to believe" from my experience. I only ask that you respect my right to interpret/perceive things in my own way. And just as you don't appreciate theists trying to convince you to see "their truth", I am sure many theists don't appreciate you trying to disprove their truth. Fair enough?
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:30 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,644,981 times
Reputation: 2979
Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I can't at this moment articulate how my example might relate to religious arguments.
Nor can I, and I do rather like to think I have an active imagination. However we are on a forum and the text we write here mostly stays forever so I doubt we have much issue with you having to prove what someone has or has not said here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
I believe some of those explanations and do find them interesting.
Nor are you alone in this. The reasons you do however are entirely opaque to me. There appears to be no basis for believing those interpretations. Except the usual one which is all too prevalent on these fora.... that one WANTS to believe them.

I prefer to believe things if there is sufficient reasons to do so however... regardless of how much I want... or indeed do not want... to do so.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:04 AM
 
5,460 posts, read 6,197,171 times
Reputation: 1806
Quote:
Originally Posted by looking4answers12 View Post
KC,
I'm not a big fan of the word excuses, but thank you too for replying.

Can either of you agree that some things just can't be proven?
Yes. That has nothing to do with being unable to provide evidence, though. Nor does the fact that some things can't be proven do anything to show that god is one of those things.

Quote:
For example, a person can't always prove that they saw what they saw.
I'm not claiming that I've every "seen" anything, but clearly some people do say this.

It seems that when a person claimes to have seen something not from this world, most ahtheist quickly assume that person is either lying, or they are delusional.
Just like believers do when a person claims to have supernatural proof of a religion different from theirs. Atheists are just consistent and don't make a special exception for the god they already believe in.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:44 PM
 
Location: FL
1,727 posts, read 2,313,717 times
Reputation: 1047
Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
You could also add to your second list of two items, the third:

3) Refuse to answer objective and polite questions that are specific and expository about the God under debate. Then throw in an ad-hominem.



The problem is that when someone claims to have had, let's say, an experience, but then goes on to claim that the event is or was, absolutely, PROOF OF a deity, this just doesn't cut it. If such a thing were possible, why would it only happen to just one person, from a God who supposedly loves all 7B of us?

And when it's logically reviewed, and we do, in fact, find "the man behind the curtain", what would you have us believe in light of such exposures? To just forget them and go into auto-default Godly belief mode?

Sorry. We're too skeptical for that.

And then, to top it all off, when we do systematically investigate all the outrageous and illogical claims for a God, and find only contradictions, conundra and calamity, we also usually find rational valid and non-Godly explanations or at least potentially possible and rational hypotheses. What woud you have us do then? Ignore those options and toss them out the window in favor of an irrational and unsupported faith-based belief?

Your committed dislike of what science finds and how it logically works it's way through quandaries is not enough reason on it's own for us to convert to a belief in a thoroughly disproven God. To just believe in something because you feel, on a very intense level, that it's true, or that you were raised to that belief but absent any critical review of it, seems to be only because you WANT it to be true, and is certainly not sufficient grounds for us to abandon reason and intellect, now is it?

Especially when so many of us where actually once Christian believers and know how "the system" works. You guys act as though we've not been through your belief system's proofs and management system! But by comparison, how many of you have ever conducted a solid reeserch and investigation team, or written a scientific paper and had it reviewed, and had your share of failed, but also successful, hypotheses? Hmmm? How many?



Wrong. The point is to date that science has indeed rather thoroughly investigated the inexplicable, the supernatural and the outright illogical with an open mind, but since there are essentially no new proofs materializing any more from the theist side, aside from re-hashes of very out of date stuff, or of purposeful mis-quotes about Henry Gee for instance, what are we then to conclude?

That in fact a state of desperation has truly sunk in with theists?

Why is it that you guys never grow skeptical? Why is it that, in light of any new evidence as to how the real world actually works absent any Godly intervention, you still steadfastly refuse to consider this possibility, or even answer our polite and open questions? Or theists claim to have had their feelings hurt and then seek some philosophical rock to hide under? WhyIzzZhat, pray tell?

(Oh My! There's yet another question. Let's see if you answer it openly and honestly!)

Finally, you mentioned "what if God left off some DNA evidence...etc etc.". What do you mean buy "God left"? you guys claim this all the time, but thee's absolutely no evidence at all for any Godly visits or donations.

Points are: 1) many Christians once wouldn't even believe there was DNA ("it's only a theory" Ever heard that tired refrain from your fellow Christians?), or later, that it controls our phenotype (how we look and how we operate) through our genotype (the arrangements and sequences of our, yup, DNA...). But given the inevitability of it's existence and proofs of how it works and mutates, many theists now seem to want to claim that they believed it all along, and it's OBVIOUSLY God's Design work, since they are all in AWE of it, and "it's far to complex to have evolved all on it's own!" Which btw, is all scientifically illiterate rubbish.

Have a good night. Or morning...
I'm not sure if I can get past how much you generalize us as "you guys" enough to reply to anything.

I can't speak for "us guys" because I am me, all by myself.
I lot of the things you acuse "us guys" of, I don't happen to be guilty of.
Some if it, I may be, but not most of it.

You might have me confused with those folks who are hell bent on saving you. That isn't my purpose. Could I be wrong? Sure, I supposed.
I've said before I don't "know" there is a God. I believe there is.

I still stand by my belief that people will believe what they want regardless of what "evidence" is put in front of them. You certainly have not convinced me otherwise.
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Old 02-06-2012, 07:13 PM
 
Location: FROM Dixie, but IN SoCal
3,485 posts, read 5,893,501 times
Reputation: 3762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
I wonder if the thread saw a bright light before it came back from its near death.
If my personal experience has any significance, no.

Rather, the thread experienced an irresistible re-boot from "nothingness" into "somethingness."

Last edited by Nighteyes; 02-06-2012 at 07:24 PM..
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