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Old 08-04-2011, 08:28 AM
 
Location: the dirty south
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Have you ever listened to Michael Shermer break NDE down? Good stuff.
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Old 08-04-2011, 08:45 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
48,838 posts, read 14,695,907 times
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Originally Posted by angrycandy View Post
Have you ever listened to Michael Shermer break NDE down? Good stuff.
Yes indeed. It's worth looking.

But of course it is only fair to look at those with some objections to make to Mr Shermer.

COMMENT ON THE NEWSDebunker out of control

It is interesting to look at this because the sum total of this debunker's case is irrelevance, misdirection and presenting to 'possibility' that it true as somehow the same as probably being true.

It is ingenuous, not to say dishonest to sideline the very real controlling effect that much of this unsupported paranormal stuff has on a great number of people and would on everyone else if they could persuade us to equally buy into it.

Overall, the debunking of the debunker rather debunks the debunker of the debunker. There is a case for investigating the phenomenon without prejudice and I doubt that Mr Shermer would object to that, but the sad fact is that prejudiced assumptions about what the phenomenon is is only to common baggage with those who are self styled 'researchers'.

But of course only if one is aware of the rhetorical tricks and logically incorrect arguments the apologist uses. That is why I keep saying that we need to become familiar with them, because pushers of the paranormal regularly use fallacious arguments in order to make their case.
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:42 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Interesting that people focus on certain aspects of the NDE experience and neglect others . . . how do you account for a flatlined patient recounting experiences in the room - particular conversations, actions, etc. These are reported as taking place from a vantage point above the body . . .

Also, many atheists, after having an NDE become spiritual . . . because of the EXPERIENCE . . . you can read all you want about anything in books, but once you have had a spiritual experience, you are changed. There is no further argument, because you "know" - it is a known, felt experience . . .

I don't see how a person "becoming spiritual" after a NDE has anything to do with the truth of spirituality. Some people are looking for any reason to become spiritual. I know people who've had NDE who reaffirmed their atheism as a result. Is this now proof God doesn't exist?
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:44 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
You just stated a bunch of gibberish, with absolutely no back-up, and you state these things as fact - I have highlighted your "factual" statements. Please quote your sources!

Person is "usually an adult"
You say the anesthesia creates a dream state
You say the anesthesia creates a sensation of flying or floating

Who ever said anything about flying or floating anyway? The reports I have read said the person is above their body looking down at the table, not flying around the room . . .
So if they're above their own body, and they're neither flying nor floating, what are they doing? Did you invent some new word to describe this?
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:57 AM
 
8,680 posts, read 14,011,287 times
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Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper 88 View Post
What do you think this phenomena is? How is it that so many people who have had a near death experience have all described the same thing? If it isn't " divine" then what causes it?
Expectation. They've heard it somewhere before, their psyches latched on, and then their psyches barfed it back up as a coping mechanism in a crisis. Not everyone has that same experience. Others say they see their whole lives flash before their eyes. Some call out for their mothers.

As for the effect of religion, Christians say they see angels, saints, Jesus, or their families. Some Native Americans will say they felt one of their two souls detaching. Aboriginals will mention animal spirit guides. Muslims will mention Allah.

It's all influenced by what has been drilled into your head your whole life and how your psyche files it away, nothing more.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:53 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,662,656 times
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Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
So if they're above their own body, and they're neither flying nor floating, what are they doing? Did you invent some new word to describe this?
No, the point is, in the first person reports I have read, the focus is on seeing what is beneath them, not on the experience of "floating" or "flying." It's more about their perspective being out of the body and witnessing what is going on, rather than the phenomenon of floating or flying.
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:57 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
No, the point is, in the first person reports I have read, the focus is on seeing what is beneath them, not on the experience of "floating" or "flying." It's more about their perspective being out of the body and witnessing what is going on, rather than the phenomenon of floating or flying.
How does this affect what the poster said about anasthesia and its effects on the perception of the brain? You're floating above your body/perception is changed, etc. Both are sensations that are quite often produced by these drugs. This discussion is silly.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:01 AM
 
8,680 posts, read 14,011,287 times
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Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
How does this affect what the poster said about anasthesia and its effects on the perception of the brain? You're floating above your body/perception is changed, etc. Both are sensations that are quite often produced by these drugs.
Nikki Sixx was actually pronounced dead and he described the floating and the view from above the scene.

Oh, wait, that was the heroin.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:14 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,662,656 times
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Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
How does this affect what the poster said about anasthesia and its effects on the perception of the brain? You're floating above your body/perception is changed, etc. Both are sensations that are quite often produced by these drugs. This discussion is silly.
Ok, I am going to bow out of this conversation, because there is no point in talking to people who have such closed minds (you might want to wonder about how intricate the world and the ecological system is and weigh that against your atheism in your spare time - or not - for such smart people, you seem kind of dense to not appreciate how perfectly ordered things are) . . .

But back to the NDE issue, the poster asserted that the drugs do "x" with absolutely no substantiation. I thought when you had surgery, the drugs they give you put you out . . . I don't remember any dream states . . .

Also, a lot of these reports are in the ER, when the person has had some kind of accident or shock and they are working on them and there have been no drugs administered. How do you account for that?

Have you people even read the reports? Lots of them are by scientists, former atheists, and all kinds of non-believing types . . .why don't you actually read some reports and then report back?
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:21 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Ok, I am going to bow out of this conversation, because there is no point in talking to people who have such closed minds (you might want to wonder about how intricate the world and the ecological system is and weigh that against your atheism in your spare time - or not - for such smart people, you seem kind of dense to not appreciate how perfectly ordered things are) . . .
LMAO!, stop right there. First, things in the universe are not "perfectly ordered", and if you believe that, you really know nothing about the natural world. Almost none of the universe is inhabitable by humans -- vast trillions of light years are a vacuum where no living thing can breathe. About 80% of the planet Earth is covered by water, and therefore uninhabitable by humans. Another huge chunk of the land is arid, unliveable desert, freezing Arctic/Antarctic hell, or oxygen-deprived peaks where we'd die within minutes due to exposure/lack of oxygen.

The areas where we DO live are often wrought with famine, disease, disastrous storms, and geologic activity that kills millions over time. Yet you have the audacity to presume that somehow we're "special" and things are "perfectly ordered"? The proof that creationism is false exists in the complete and utter flaws in "creation," everywhere. Our land is liveable, but constantly changing, and not always for the better of humans. We're completely beside the point, in the grand scheme of things. The fact that we have consciousness and can imagine fairies, demons, Gods and NDEs is not proof that they exist, only that more lobes of our brain are accessible.

Read a book, honestly.

Quote:
But back to the NDE issue, the poster asserted that the drugs do "x" with absolutely no substantiation. I thought when you had surgery, the drugs they give you put you out . . . I don't remember any dream states . . .


There are numerous documented instances of people waking up during surgery, and anasthesia has residual effects after surgery for every human being, many of which include delusions and floating sensations. No "substantiation" is needed for this, as it is accepted truth. Perhaps you've never had surgery, but those of us who have realize how much these drugs can alter your mind.

Quote:
Also, a lot of these reports are in the ER, when the person has had some kind of accident or shock and they are working on them and there have been no drugs administered. How do you account for that?


The body releases its own adrenaline and numerous other chemicals in response to shock and trauma. Even putting the oxygen mask on someone can induce visions, especially combined with deep trauma.

Quote:
Have you people even read the reports? Lots of them are by scientists, former atheists, and all kinds of non-believing types . . .why don't you actually read some reports and then report back?
Quote:
It makes absolutely no difference if they're former atheists or scientists, that's why.
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