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Old 08-04-2011, 11:29 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,662,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
LMAO!, stop right there. First, things in the universe are not "perfectly ordered", and if you believe that, you really know nothing about the natural world. Almost none of the universe is inhabitable by humans -- vast trillions of light years are a vacuum where no living thing can breathe. About 80% of the planet Earth is covered by water, and therefore uninhabitable by humans. Another huge chunk of the land is arid, unliveable desert, freezing Arctic/Antarctic hell, or oxygen-deprived peaks where we'd die within minutes due to exposure/lack of oxygen.

The areas where we DO live are often wrought with famine, disease, disastrous storms, and geologic activity that kills millions over time. Yet you have the audacity to presume that somehow we're "special" and things are "perfectly ordered"? The proof that creationism is false exists in the complete and utter flaws in "creation," everywhere. Our land is liveable, but constantly changing, and not always for the better of humans. We're completely beside the point, in the grand scheme of things. The fact that we have consciousness and can imagine fairies, demons, Gods and NDEs is not proof that they exist, only that more lobes of our brain our accessible.

Read a book, honestly.



There are numerous documented instances of people waking up during surgery, and anasthesia has residual effects after surgery for every human being, many of which include delusions and floating sensations. No "substantiation" is needed for this, as it is accepted truth. Perhaps you've never had surgery, but those of us who have realize how much these drugs can alter your mind.



The body releases its own adrenaline and numerous other chemicals in response to shock and trauma. Even putting the oxygen mask on someone can induce visions, especially combined with deep trauma.



It makes absolutely no difference if they're former atheists or scientists, that's why.
You obviously haven't read anything on the Chaos Theory (re: order in the universe) but that's neither here nor there.

Reading the reports of previous atheists and scientists is relevant for the obvious reason that those are people whose opinions you would respect, so you might give them a little more credence then you would people you consider "nut jobs."

Also, atheists pride themselves on being smart, but it seems so ironic to me that you think we just randomly popped up out of nowhere. That in itself is pretty amazing and awe-inspiring. doncha think?
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:32 PM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
You obviously haven't read anything on the Chaos Theory (re: order in the universe) but that's neither here nor there.
So you saw Jurassic Park, too? Cool.

Quote:
Reading the reports of previous atheists and scientists is relevant for the obvious reason that those are people whose opinions you would respect, so you might give them a little more credence then you would people you consider "nut jobs."


I'll instantly stop respecting their opinions when they chalk up their own subjective, unverified mental delusions as objective fact without proper evidence.

Quote:
Also, atheists pride themselves on being smart, but it seems so ironic to me that you think we just randomly popped up out of nowhere. That in itself is pretty amazing and awe-inspiring. doncha think?
Quote:


Christ here we go.

Nobody who respects science believes we "popped out" by random chance. That's actually the Christian narrative, ergo, your God somehow "popped out" by no explainable chance and then "popped out" Adam & Eve.

Take your tripe back to Sunday School where they don't ask questions.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:36 PM
 
1,978 posts, read 2,306,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
No, the point is, in the first person reports I have read, the focus is on seeing what is beneath them, not on the experience of "floating" or "flying." It's more about their perspective being out of the body and witnessing what is going on, rather than the phenomenon of floating or flying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
How does this affect what the poster said about anasthesia and its effects on the perception of the brain? You're floating above your body/perception is changed, etc. Both are sensations that are quite often produced by these drugs. This discussion is silly.

First off let me say you where a little hard on Woodrow Li's post imcurious, he's entitled to his opinion and what he says might be as good an explanation as any given what we know of the afterlife and out of body experiences so far.

That having been said the discussion is far from silly as OreNative puts it. We all have had dreams that may even include people who are no longer with us that seem as vivid and real as real life. Some of mine are so realistic that if I recall the memory of it shortly after I have it, I actually have to stop think awhile to remember that it was a dream sometimes. People who have taken hallucinogenic drugs (LSD, etc.) swear the experiences are as real as ever.

But these images and events are fictitious, they are not real and have no real life couterpart. Imcurious is correct in saying it is not so much a floating or flying experience as it is a stationary viewpoint from above looking down on a REAL LIFE, REAL TIME event, the experiences have been confirmed time and again by hospital staff involved in the proceedings. You can explain how the patient hears what is being said by the fact they may not be totally "Under" in medical terms, but how do you explain this alternate out of body viewpoint?

The curare and all that might explain an hallucination, but this isn't an hallucination.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:40 PM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
You can explain how the patient hears what is being said by the fact they may not be totally "Under" in medical terms, but how do you explain this alternate out of body viewpoint?
Obviously, it's your soul escaping your body, but stil transmitting the signal through Tinkerbell fairy dust back to your eyeballs. You get BACK into your body when your dead Aunt Glenda tells you that you still have unfinished business back on earth.

Then you recover, and continue ordering Netflix and eating Big Macs.

You're right, I'm converted to being spiritual now.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:54 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
48,838 posts, read 14,695,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
You obviously haven't read anything on the Chaos Theory (re: order in the universe) but that's neither here nor there.

Reading the reports of previous atheists and scientists is relevant for the obvious reason that those are people whose opinions you would respect, so you might give them a little more credence then you would people you consider "nut jobs."

Also, atheists pride themselves on being smart, but it seems so ironic to me that you think we just randomly popped up out of nowhere. That in itself is pretty amazing and awe-inspiring. doncha think?
If it's neither here nor there it doesn't help your argument - whatever it is.

It's rather funny that the theists or cultists (I'm not sure what we've got here) attack the evidence -based and tested findings of science apparently because they believe that atheists believe anything that 'scientists' say. Thus if they can find some 'scientists' or (since everyone knows atheism is just the science religion..or science religion is atheism) some former atheists or at least theists starting their evangelical apologetics package with 'I used to be an atheist like you...until...' and expect us to take their word for an unverified anecdote which, even if it is is correctly remembered and reported (far from a 'given'), is simply an unexplained and unexplainable experience.

Sorry if that was a rather long sentence, but your reasoning contained so many flaws that it took some explaining.

The final point is replete with flaws, too. Let's enumerate them rather than construct an unwieldy complex sentence.

(1) atheist are just atheist and do not pride themselves on it.
(2) They do not claim to be smart but do claim to avoid believing unvalidated theist claims. That's all atheism is.
(3) argument from we randomly popped up out of nowhere is quite off topic.
(4) there was a lot of known and traceable events between us and whatever was the origin of our Cosmos. 'We' popped out of 'nowhere' is a deliberately grotesque misrepresentation.
(4) and random is rather inaccurate as there are known physical laws and procedures (1) that govern matter and bioforms.
(5) it is amazing and awe inspiring as many scientific discoveries are, which belies the accusation that it is soulless and bereft of inspiration.

And I thought that one of the attributes of theist claims was how amazing and awe - inspiring it is. That there is a complex cosmos sized invisible spirit that either popped randomly out of nowhere or even more amazing had always been like and which suddenly decides for no good reason to make a universe.
Isn't that equally amazing and awe inspiring? Sure is. But I suppose you won't see that as a reason to question or doubt it. Nor even if there isn't any evidence for it, as there is for the 'we popped out of nothing' line.

That's an impressive amount of bosh you posted in just one and a half lines! What is there, some hot competition amongst Theist posters for who can talk the most nonsense in the shortest post?

(1) and don't ask 'Who made dem laws anyway?' You have talked quite enough twaddle for one post.
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:10 PM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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I do find it funny that theists come here and accuse us of being arrogant with our intelligence.

The fact that most atheists are intelligent is just inevitability, not some stuffy, pre-ordained requirement for joining our "club". Chances are, if you're an atheist in modern-day America, you think for yourself. To some that implies arrogance, i.e. how dare you not accept the word of God (or the word of those pompous old fools who claim to speak for him)??
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Old 08-04-2011, 01:29 PM
 
Location: S. Wales.
48,838 posts, read 14,695,907 times
Reputation: 5751
There was a post on this some time ago and while there was a not unexpected leaning towards those with livelier intelligence asking question more that others, there was no doubt that some theists are very intelligent. Quality research intelligent, even Nobel - prize intelligent.

The thing is that they either hived off the theism into a part of their brain where it couldn't compromise their work or they allowed it to misuse their intelligence to construct fallacious arguments to validate the invalid.

To anticipate the inevitable accusation, I have said several times that I do not think myself particularly intelligent of smart, but by Random Factors, thanks to my job - training and using the rules of Science method and logic I am sure am able to punch well above my mental weight. I can reccommend it over Faith as inspiring one to greater achievement any day.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:44 PM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
There was a post on this some time ago and while there was a not unexpected leaning towards those with livelier intelligence asking question more that others, there was no doubt that some theists are very intelligent. Quality research intelligent, even Nobel - prize intelligent.

The thing is that they either hived off the theism into a part of their brain where it couldn't compromise their work or they allowed it to misuse their intelligence to construct fallacious arguments to validate the invalid.

To anticipate the inevitable accusation, I have said several times that I do not think myself particularly intelligent of smart, but by Random Factors, thanks to my job - training and using the rules of Science method and logic I am sure am able to punch well above my mental weight. I can reccommend it over Faith as inspiring one to greater achievement any day.

Absolutely correct. The Scientific method is trustworthy precisely because it is a self-correcting mechanism, and doesn't merely rely on human intelligence to solve problems, find answers. This is a fundmantal truth that theists actively refuse to grasp, even as they use the scientific method in their daily lives, or benefit from those who do (doctors, plumbers, auto mechanics, pilots, etc.).
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:13 PM
 
1,978 posts, read 2,306,260 times
Reputation: 2736
Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
There was a post on this some time ago and while there was a not unexpected leaning towards those with livelier intelligence asking question more that others, there was no doubt that some theists are very intelligent. Quality research intelligent, even Nobel - prize intelligent.

The thing is that they either hived off the theism into a part of their brain where it couldn't compromise their work or they allowed it to misuse their intelligence to construct fallacious arguments to validate the invalid.

To anticipate the inevitable accusation, I have said several times that I do not think myself particularly intelligent of smart, but by Random Factors, thanks to my job - training and using the rules of Science method and logic I am sure am able to punch well above my mental weight. I can reccommend it over Faith as inspiring one to greater achievement any day.

AREQIUPA, I think it is important here to make a distinction between Theism and Spirituality. I'm sure there are brilliant theists who take either of the two courses you set out, but there may be an equal number of spiritual Nobel Prize level intelligent people out there.

I think Spirituality can too easily and errantly fall under the arguably broader but certainly more popular and discussed (at least here on the C.D. boards) category of Theism.

Definitions:

Theism...Beleif in the existence of a God or Gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. (Oxford Dictionary)

Sprituality...Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. (Oxford Dictionary)


Peace
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Old 08-04-2011, 05:31 PM
 
223 posts, read 240,725 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
AREQIUPA, I think it is important here to make a distinction between Theism and Spirituality. I'm sure there are brilliant theists who take either of the two courses you set out, but there may be an equal number of spiritual Nobel Prize level intelligent people out there.

I think Spirituality can too easily and errantly fall under the arguably broader but certainly more popular and discussed (at least here on the C.D. boards) category of Theism.

Definitions:

Theism...Beleif in the existence of a God or Gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. (Oxford Dictionary)

Sprituality...Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. (Oxford Dictionary)


Peace
I fail to see the difference. In almost every case, people who claim to be "spiritual" also claim belief in some sort of deity, or guiding force that keeps your being together after you stop breathing.

It's all BS.
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