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Old 08-05-2011, 12:16 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,639,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
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Not really. They're talking about microbes existing on Mars as we speak. There are plenty of theories about life finding a way to emerge from a primordial soup with the right mixture of elements, heat, etc. Just because science hasn't figured it out doesn't guarantee that they won't.

The God hypothesis certainly makes 1,000% less sense. Creationists thinkg something can't come from nothing, but somehow something as complex as God emerged from nothing? It's certainly idiotic to use God as a space-filler.

[b][color=darkorchid]

There doesn't need to be a purpose. The purpose is to eat, breathe, breed, raise your young.

There's nothing rational about guessing that "something made us." That's not rationality, it's pure laziness.

Yes, the world is very "beautiful", you keep saying this as if it's self-evidence for a creator. Your eye is trained to take in certain visions and declare them as "beautiful", but that's a subjective description. It's not objective proof of a God.

I really don't know why I'm wasting these pears on you. It's clear it'll all go right over your head.


Hate to break it to you, but elements (heat, etc.) are something . . . something can't come from nothing. Nothing means it does not exist . . .nothing can come from what does not exist. Period. Good night.
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Old 08-05-2011, 02:19 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,639,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
how do you account for a flatlined patient recounting experiences in the room - particular conversations, actions, etc
Quite easily actually. Flat lining refers to the heart. The monitor is measuring hearth activity. When the heart stops the brain does not automatically stop at exactly the same moment.

In other words flat lining says nothing about the brain activity and so it is perfectly plausible that senses still take in data (such as sound) and they are received by the brain and processed when the patient awakens.

Now if there was a body of data showing zero mental activity, that the brain was 100% dead, and in THAT time period the patient managed to hear conversations or visually report actions that occurred.... you would have a body of data worthy of deeper inquiry. I doubt you have such however.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
No, the point is, in the first person reports I have read, the focus is on seeing what is beneath them
Further, there are experiments being performed (and have been performed in the past) testing whether people really do float above their body. Pictures, digits, objects and so on are being placed in operating theaters in positions that could ONLY be seen if you were above the operating table. Even the doctors and nurses in the room do not know what they are.

So far in these tests I have not heard of one person who has come back saying "I floated above my body, I heard and saw all the things the doctors did and said....... oh and weirdly there was a pink digital readout with the number 12389 on it on top of the press over there...." or "did you know there was a gold multi armed buddah statue on top of that press over there?".

So if you think all these people really are floating about the room, then explain to me why not one single one of them EVER has seen things that are blatantly designed to be literally unmissable that are placed there for them to see? Ever. Even one would be interesting, but to support what you are claiming here the numbers should be a lot greater than one. But not even one exists to my knowledge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
I am going to bow out of this conversation, because there is no point in talking to people who have such closed minds
Why is it when you people use the phrase "closed minds" the definition you have of closed minds seems to be "anyone who does not agree with what I am saying, despite the fact I have not got a single shred of evidence to back up what I am saying".

Open mindedness is about being willing to listen to new things and consider the evidence for those new things and to accept new ideas if the evidence suggests you should.

Open mindednesss is NOT.... much as you seem to want it to be.... the willingness to accept any old thing you come out with simply because you came out with it.
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:09 AM
 
5,460 posts, read 6,193,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
But these images and events are fictitious, they are not real and have no real life couterpart. Imcurious is correct in saying it is not so much a floating or flying experience as it is a stationary viewpoint from above looking down on a REAL LIFE, REAL TIME event, the experiences have been confirmed time and again by hospital staff involved in the proceedings.
I keep hearing this claim but haven't seen any real evidence of how accurate these anecdotes actually are.

Quote:
You can explain how the patient hears what is being said by the fact they may not be totally "Under" in medical terms, but how do you explain this alternate out of body viewpoint?
Ever had a dream which incorporated things going on in real-time around you? I have, all the time. If it's hot or cold it affects the dream. If the alarm is going off or there are other noises in the background, it affects the dream. Nothing magical about those situations - why assume magic in a case where the person is incorporating sense input into a different type of lack of consciousness?
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Old 08-05-2011, 07:21 AM
 
Location: S. Wales.
48,618 posts, read 14,583,580 times
Reputation: 5742
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
AREQIUPA, I think it is important here to make a distinction between Theism and Spirituality. I'm sure there are brilliant theists who take either of the two courses you set out, but there may be an equal number of spiritual Nobel Prize level intelligent people out there.

I think Spirituality can too easily and errantly fall under the arguably broader but certainly more popular and discussed (at least here on the C.D. boards) category of Theism.

Definitions:

Theism...Beleif in the existence of a God or Gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe. (Oxford Dictionary)

Sprituality...Relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul as opposed to material or physical things. (Oxford Dictionary)


Peace
I take your point. Theism is belief in a god and spirituality is ah...well, things spiritual. There is a lot of overlap but I'd tend to say that I at least see theism as tending towards anthropomorphic personal gods and organized religions with definite dogmas and spirituality being a bit more loose and with room for personal takes and more individual without the men in funny hats telling hem how to think.

Where I avoid the term 'spritual' is that I see it as tending to take speculations as believable facts and giving into the admittedly tempting opting for a handy unverified explanation for the unexplained. I prefer to keep my options open. I see no evidence for a soul though the idea is very common. There are a lot of very common ideas and one has to ask whether the ideas about souls, ghosts, afterlife, gods and demigods are just human myths based on evolved - instinct inclinations.

There is a certain amount of indirect evidence that this is the case and a lack of any sound evidence that those things are real. I am aware of a lot of anecdotal claims supposedly proving a soul and an afterlife but these have a habit of failing to stand up very well if they are checked up. I am constantly frustrated by failure to follow up. However.

In some ways I consider myself a very spiritual person in the sense of the human spirit as a product of human instinct and consciousness. I avoid the term 'soul' as that tends to suppose that there is such a thing as distinct from consciousness.

To me it is an acceptance of what gives our lives meaning and worth. While I recognize that there is absolutely no intrinsic meaning in our lives the subjective meanings are absolutely worthwhile and the meaning specific to our species is to ensure that we survive and live fulfilled and happy lives.

Materialist philosophy in an odd way is the key to spirituality, because it enables us to shed the myths and delusions which we have attached to it and which mislead us into all sorts of time - wasting rivalries about race and religion when we should all work together as humans for the common good of humanity.

Well...don't want to go off topic and I'm sounding like a bod ranting on about subjects about which he knows nothing, but I just had to say something to lay low this constant calumny that atheists and materialists are all soulless robots without any spirituality or sense of beauty or wonder.

That is absolutely and utterly not true. While I see the science method and logic as the best -in fact the only reliable -way to validate information and to avoid being misled by faulty reasoning, they are only the mental tools which we use and are no more than that, and they are far from being the sum of what our lives are about.

Let me give an example. Astronomy is far more wonderful, exciting and beautiful because of what science has taught us than thinking that the planets are little lamps attached to the inside of a dome.

Music and art is marvellous and thrilling as much and perhaps more if one understands that art and music are human inventions and there is no point trying to find the basic divinely given meaning of it. Like some composers who pared away the layers of music to find out what was at the very bottom, they found there was nothing left.

Well, I really am rambling on.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 08-05-2011 at 07:34 AM..
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:40 AM
 
1,977 posts, read 2,299,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
I keep hearing this claim but haven't seen any real evidence of how accurate these anecdotes actually are.
Yes of course the "evidence" so to speak is entirely anecdotal, but as I understand it the credibility of the reporters is fairly good. Reports are at random, reporters seem to have no personal or hidden agenda, many are well educated and/or atheistic or otherwise religion neutral, etc.



Quote:
Originally Posted by KCfromNC View Post
Ever had a dream which incorporated things going on in real-time around you? I have, all the time. If it's hot or cold it affects the dream. If the alarm is going off or there are other noises in the background, it affects the dream. Nothing magical about those situations - why assume magic in a case where the person is incorporating sense input into a different type of lack of consciousness?

It's the volume and consistency of expereince, combined with the above stated level of credibility regarding reporters that might give the situation stronger legs, and again, the point of perspective (looking back from a point away from the body) that intrigues me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post




In some ways I consider myself a very spiritual person in the sense of the human spirit as a product of human instinct and consciousness. I avoid the term 'soul' as that tends to suppose that there is such a thing as distinct from consciousness.

This is all anyone (well at least me anyway) can ask of Atheists, you seem to blend an open minded sense of spirituality in your overall philosophy which I feel gives it more depth and dimension. I wish more Atheists would follow your lead.




Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Well...don't want to go off topic and I'm sounding like a bod ranting on about subjects about which he knows nothing, but I just had to say something to lay low this constant calumny that atheists and materialists are all soulless robots without any spirituality or sense of beauty or wonder.

You Athiests who adopt the stance that theism and spirituality is all nonsense all the time in all situations take note of the above..



Quote:
Originally Posted by AREQUIPA View Post
Music and art is marvellous and thrilling as much and perhaps more if one understands that art and music are human inventions and there is no point trying to find the basic divinely given meaning of it. Like some composers who pared away the layers of music to find out what was at the very bottom, they found there was nothing left.

Well, I really am rambling on.

Unless the encoded strands of DNA where pre-engineered by some sort of ancient and superior intelligence, in that case the inventions are owed at least in part to them. But that's another discussion and the thread that was started on it has been dissapointing so far in fielding prospective theories regarding same. Although I applaud your effort to attempt some theories and keep the thread on topic.


Peace
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Old 08-05-2011, 09:48 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,382 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldIMoveOrStayPut...? View Post
This is all anyone (well at least me anyway) can ask of Atheists, you seem to blend an open minded sense of spirituality in your overall philosophy which I feel gives it more depth and dimension. I wish more Atheists would follow your lead.







You Athiests who adopt the stance that theism and spirituality is all nonsense all the time in all situations take note of the above..
Ok, let me put this controversy to rest.

Atheists are not "soulless" robots who do not see beauty or "love" in the world. Not at all. Often, the difference between "spiritual" people and atheists/materialists, is mostly our vocabulary. You say "spiritual", we refer to endorphins, adrenaline, euphoria, seratonin. You say "spirit", we say "energy."

"Spirituality" is nothing more than a name given to scientific elements in the body that science has figured out, but of which "spiritual people" object to the naming.

Spirituality seems to imply supernatural elements, and we object to that. Everything you feel, see, hear has a scientific explanation, even if it hasn't been pinned down by science. That doesn't preclude atheists from having a romantic notion about it.


Personally, when I hear someone say "I'm spiritual", it's usually a 20-year-old girl who spent a lot more time writing lousy poems than reading biology papers.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:01 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,639,723 times
Reputation: 8956
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Quite easily actually. Flat lining refers to the heart. The monitor is measuring hearth activity. When the heart stops the brain does not automatically stop at exactly the same moment.

In other words flat lining says nothing about the brain activity and so it is perfectly plausible that senses still take in data (such as sound) and they are received by the brain and processed when the patient awakens.

Now if there was a body of data showing zero mental activity, that the brain was 100% dead, and in THAT time period the patient managed to hear conversations or visually report actions that occurred.... you would have a body of data worthy of deeper inquiry. I doubt you have such however.



Further, there are experiments being performed (and have been performed in the past) testing whether people really do float above their body. Pictures, digits, objects and so on are being placed in operating theaters in positions that could ONLY be seen if you were above the operating table. Even the doctors and nurses in the room do not know what they are.

So far in these tests I have not heard of one person who has come back saying "I floated above my body, I heard and saw all the things the doctors did and said....... oh and weirdly there was a pink digital readout with the number 12389 on it on top of the press over there...." or "did you know there was a gold multi armed buddah statue on top of that press over there?".


So if you think all these people really are floating about the room, then explain to me why not one single one of them EVER has seen things that are blatantly designed to be literally unmissable that are placed there for them to see? Ever. Even one would be interesting, but to support what you are claiming here the numbers should be a lot greater than one. But not even one exists to my knowledge.



Why is it when you people use the phrase "closed minds" the definition you have of closed minds seems to be "anyone who does not agree with what I am saying, despite the fact I have not got a single shred of evidence to back up what I am saying".

Open mindedness is about being willing to listen to new things and consider the evidence for those new things and to accept new ideas if the evidence suggests you should.

Open mindednesss is NOT.... much as you seem to want it to be.... the willingness to accept any old thing you come out with simply because you came out with it.
Please quote your sources, re: the red highlighted material.

I have read many reports where people do recount all kinds of specific things in the room.

I was not aware that there were experiments going on whereby hospital personnel put particular things in particular places and then wait for people to flatline. This sounds like a fascinating study! Links, please!!!!!
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:24 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
Please quote your sources, re: the red highlighted material.

I have read many reports where people do recount all kinds of specific things in the room.

I was not aware that there were experiments going on whereby hospital personnel put particular things in particular places and then wait for people to flatline. This sounds like a fascinating study! Links, please!!!!!
People could easily recount specific things if they saw them before they flatlined, and their subconscious remembers them. That's not magic, that's merely memory.

The point of the experiment is to find things that a patient could only have seen if they floated above themselves, as is alleged by hokey spiritualists and theists who think such things literally happen.

It's very easy to Google the info you have asked for. It would be nice if you creationists would do even 1% of the work that atheists do in researching these ridiculous claims. Anyway, here's a UK Guardian article about the experiment:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/...ep/18/research
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:39 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,639,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OreNative78 View Post
People could easily recount specific things if they saw them before they flatlined, and their subconscious remembers them. That's not magic, that's merely memory.

The point of the experiment is to find things that a patient could only have seen if they floated above themselves, as is alleged by hokey spiritualists and theists who think such things literally happen.

It's very easy to Google the info you have asked for. It would be nice if you creationists would do even 1% of the work that atheists do in researching these ridiculous claims. Anyway, here's a UK Guardian article about the experiment:

Postcards from heaven: scientists to study near-death experiences | News | guardian.co.uk
First of all, I notice atheists like to use labels, i.e., "Creationists," "Cultists," etc. Please note: I am not a Creationist and don't appreciate being called one.

Secondly, in the reports I have read, people do recall what is in the room, and even what monitors are reading, what doctors are saying, etc.

This seems like a good study. I hope you follow it and don't all of a sudden reject it when it produces results you can't explain away.
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Old 08-05-2011, 11:42 AM
 
223 posts, read 240,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imcurious View Post
First of all, I notice atheists like to use labels, i.e., "Creationists," "Cultists," etc. Please note: I am not a Creationist and don't appreciate being called one.
Really? So what is your theory on the beginning of the universe, mankind, etc.? You've been bashing atheists and those who believe in Evolution throughout this thread. What other conclusion am I supposed to draw?

Quote:
Secondly, in the reports I have read, people do recall what is in the room, and even what monitors are reading, what doctors are saying, etc.


Okay, here's where you provide a link.

Quote:
This seems like a good study. I hope you follow it and don't all of a sudden reject it when it produces results you can't explain away.
Quote:
LMAO! "When" it produces results? Here's the rub: when it produces ZERO evidence that patients could recall what's on the shelf, you'll continue to insist that NDEs are spiritual, literal occurrences anyway. Science has been proving people like you wrong for thousands of years, but you continue to run, bullheaded, into the territory of thoughlessness.
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