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“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.”
This quote just shows how out of touch some believers are with their fellow humans. Non-religious people believe in lots of stuff, but they weren't born with all of those beliefs. So it's not that it's impossible to convince an atheist that something exists. The problem is that the evidence available for god or other magic falls way below the threshold that normal everyday stuff has in spades. Don't blame non-believers because you can't provide evidence of something you believe - instead ask yourself why you believe in something when you can't even explain why you do.
it's true "for those who believe, no proof is necessary" because they blindly believe it all and never question and not once demand actual proof..people like that are easy to fool, look at the ones who followed Jim Jones into the jungle ..sad but true.
and "for those who don't believe, no proof is possible" that's right too because you can't prove all these fables are true because they are fables...
What would you consider to be valid proof? Assuming it were possible to prove God exists. What would do it for you?
I have answered this on the forum a few times before. The answer is that it is not my place to say. That is not a dodge there is good reasons for this.
The first is that each person appears to mean a different thing by god. So it is up to them to tell me what "god" means and then to provide the evidence, argument, data or reasons they think supports that entity.
The second is that if I assume to know what the evidence will be then I risk missing the real evidence when it comes in as it does not match my expectations. Not a risk I take in any subject.
A third is that if I knew what the evidence was I would not have to ask for the evidence, I could just go and get it myself.
So all in all I can not answer your question, but I can answer it indirectly by telling you what I think "evidence" is. I think it is a process, not a thing, as follows:
1) State clearly exactly what your claim is.
2) State clearly exactly what you think supports that claim.
3) Explain clearly how what was listed in 2 supports what was claimed in 1.
Simples. Alas a lot of people on here appear to think the process is:
1) Vaugely make a very unclear claim and then call it "god".
2) List some stuff and run.
The best I can do is simply be open to consider and discuss anything that is offered to me.
Maybe you should cut, paste and save your answer somewhere, so you don't have to keep re-typing it! I'm sure it's fairly common to see the same questions repeatedly when visiting forums where certain topics are discussed.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
KC,
I'm not a big fan of the word excuses, but thank you too for replying.
Can either of you agree that some things just can't be proven?
For example, a person can't always prove that they saw what they saw.
I'm not claiming that I've every "seen" anything, but clearly some people do say this.
It seems that when a person claimes to have seen something not from this world, most ahtheist quickly assume that person is either lying, or they are delusional.
I weigh in not with any informed scientific opinion, but my personal experience with regard to a neurological health problem that did more to convince me that "bright lights" and delusions are more common than we could possibly imagine. I had a benign brain tumor removed from my left temporal lobe 5 years ago. Prior to the tumor being diagnosed, I had the most insanely odd blackouts, tremors, deja vu experiences, and of course grand mal seizures. I saw, heard, and experienced things that to this day (4 years seizure-free) make me doubt my own perception.
The degree to which your brain has a hold on your understanding of reality is total and complete.
Any delusions people have about the fantastic or the supernatural are, in almost every case, a product of that incredibly complex (and easily fooled) universe in your cranium.
The funny thing is, after my experience (where, for about a week, I wasn't sure if I was going to face a death sentence, or mere surgery and total recovery) people kept asking me if I turned to God, or became religious or spiritual. It is 180 degrees the opposite. I completely understood how some people thought they saw a deity speak to them, or a bright light, or some dead relative. The brain can literally do anything to make the fictional appear 100% real. I just received a deeper understanding of the science of my brain. God entered into the conversation precisely never.
I respect your point of view and your conclusions.
When people say there is a scientific explanation for the white lights. I consider what they say and I don't dismiss it. There probably are valid scientific explanations for that. Fair enuf.
But, I have suspected...and what you say here, tends to reinforce my suspicion, that even if God himself stood in front of you and said "I am here! Touch me! And even if He performed half a dozen miracles in front of your* face, you would probably dimiss it as a hallucination.
I would take it a step further and say, even if HE left some sort of physical DNA evidence behind and "proof" certain atheist would STILL find a way to say "this is not proof, this is not what it appears to be".
Had to stop reading just past the middle of page two. smh
I must have been skimming when I got to the stuff toward the end of this thread.
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