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Old 11-25-2011, 01:55 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,639,628 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
Then I take it you don't think EVP is possible.
This sentence is seriously flawed. I am not commenting on whether it is POSSIBLE or not. Anything is possible. The issue is that we are living in a world where countless millions of things are possible. To accept anything you hear merely because it is possible is foolish and your head would be literally full of all kinds of nonsense because there simply is not enough room in the brain to accept all the things that are possible.

No the point is not whether a given idea is possible, the point is whether to think for any reason at all that the possibility actually IS. It is possible there is an invisible pink unicorn behind you right now. Is there any actual reason to think there IS such a thing however? No. It is possible that alien mind eating parasites live on earth and infect only elected politicians and our planet is actually being run by an alien race. Is there any reason to think this actually IS the case however? No.

So yes it is possible EVP is real. Is there any reason on offer, much less from you, to think it actually IS the case however? No. Not an ounce of it. Except for your fantasy/canard that you are sitting on a wealth of world altering evidence that you fail to provide because you are not tech savvy enough and are chronically unable in a world of billions of people to find even one person who IS? I call bull. Total, total bull.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:04 AM
 
Location: earth?
7,288 posts, read 11,639,723 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LindavG View Post
I usually don't post in this section of the forum but certain things have happened to me and I would like to know your opinions cause I really don't know what to think.

First of all, let me start by saying that I am agnostic. I don't believe in religion, I'm not sure about the existence of God and I am highly sceptical of anything "paranormal" or "supernatural". I grew up in an atheist environment, which includes my whole family apart from my now deceased grandfather. So, the fact that I'm even pondering the possibility of paranormal activity says a lot

A couple of weeks ago my mother moved into a new house and since then, a lot of strange things have happened. Objects keep on disappearing and reappearing again with no logical explanation. It started when we couldn't find the scissors. I checked every single drawer and I even took out the drawer where the scissors usually are and turned it upside down. It wasn't there, although my mom swore she put it there that morning. We went to a cousin's birthday party and when we came back, I opened that same drawer again and the scissors were right there, in plain sight! I thought that was kinda odd but I didn't really think about it anymore, I figured there must have been a logical explanation for it. A few days later, a similar situation occured. My mom wanted to go grocery shopping but she had to go to the toilet first so she put her wallet on the living room table. A few minutes later, she came back into the living room to get her wallet but it was gone! At first she thought I was pulling a prank on her but I was upstairs the whole time. The next day, she woke up to find her wallet right next to her bed on the night stand. Two days ago, I couldn't find my comb that I always keep in my purse. I looked everywhere, all the drawers etc. and I even turned my purse upside down twice, but it wasn't there. Today, I opened my purse again and my comb was right there, on top of the other stuff! I asked my mom if she had found my comb and she was very surprised, she hadn't seen it in a couple of days. To be clear: it's just me and my mom living in this house and we didn't have any visitors during the disappearance and reappearance of these objects.

What could this possibly be? Has anyone else experienced this kind of stuff?

While I'm at it, I had another strange experience when I was 9 years old. I was playing in the attic when I heard a very angry, hoarse voice whisper: "Hey! What are you doing here?!" I thought it was just my older sister trying to scare me so I ran downstairs and complained about it to my mother. My mother became very angry with me because it turned out my sister was at a friend's house and nobody else was home except my mother and my baby brother, so my mom thought I was just trying to get my sister punished for something she didn't do. Anyway, we never spoke about it again but I never forgot it. Five years later, my little brother ran downstairs screaming and crying. He was 9 years old at the time. He said that he had gone to the attic to get some toys and an angry voice had said to him: "Hey! What are you doing here? Go away!" My brother couldn't possibly have known about my experience because he was a toddler at the time and we never spoke about it since it had happened. I know this sounds like a low-budget horror movie but I swear this is exactly what happened. I remember it like yesterday.

I really don't know what to think anymore. The rational part of me says all this "supernatural" stuff is nonsense and I do believe that to a great extent but I can't deny my own experiences, right?
What I find most interesting is that you do question your own experiences . . .that, to me, is the most bizarre thing ever. How do you function in life, if you cannot know yourself or trust your own experiences? It's kind of sad.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:18 AM
 
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Not questioning things would be even worse. Especially given the massive seemingly unending evidence of the failures of human testimony and intuitions. We simply have been shown time and time again to be the worst judges of our own experience, not the best.

To mindlessly and unquestioningly fail to evaluate our own experiences and just explain them away with whatever unsubstantiated and cockamamie notion that happens to careen into consciousness really is just lazy and flawed.
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Old 11-25-2011, 03:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
21,123 posts, read 22,043,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Except for your fantasy/canard that you are sitting on a wealth of world altering evidence that you fail to provide because you are not tech savvy enough and are chronically unable in a world of billions of people to find even one person who IS? I call bull. Total, total bull.
Now really.Why bully him into doing this?
Even if he puts on a copy of 'his' tape here, who would take it as evidence of any sort?
Thre would be no proof it was his, was obtained the way he said, or any other thing.
I'm still just waiting for reference to any legitimate controlled study, after having asked twice already.
The examples given at the sites he has mentioned (and links from them) require one hell of a lot of imagination to hear any words...even though all tell you ahead of time what they are supposed to be saying.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Now really.Why bully him into doing this?
Very simply because I have no time for people who go around making entirely unsubstantiated claims and then acting like it is MY fault I am not accepting those claims.

I also have no time for lies and I have had more than my fair share of "I have the evidence but....." cop outs and I shall not be pandering to such any longer.

I advocate a form of conversational intolerance. I do not think we should be tolerating people claiming to know things they do not, or pretending to have evidence they do not. Especially given the monumentally poor excuses.... excuses which are an insult to our intelligence they are that poor.... which such people offer to cop out of having to cough up the evidence they keep claiming they have.

I certainly do not apologise for it either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
Even if he puts on a copy of 'his' tape here, who would take it as evidence of any sort?
I have my doubts indeed but I also maintain the intellectually honest position of not pre-rejecting evidence solely because I do not expect I will accept it and therefore fail to consider it.

I will consider any evidence presented and will never dismiss it out of hand. If I think it is not evidence or valid then I will not just leave, I will explain exactly WHY it is not evidence.

However it was him, not I, that not only called it evidence but "undeniable evidence". That is no small claim so it really should be "put up or shut up" time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by old_cold View Post
The examples given at the sites he has mentioned (and links from them) require one hell of a lot of imagination to hear any words...even though all tell you ahead of time what they are supposed to be saying.
Indeed, I mentioned already just how often we have seen cases where people hear voices in white noise that are not there. Especially if you tell them what the words are meant to be. You can try such test yourself. Get some white noise and do the following studies:

1) Do not tell people anything except "Do you hear voices in here somewhere".
2) Tell one group of people what the voices are saying and ask them do they agree.
3) Tell another group of people something ELSE the voices are saying and ask if they agree.

You will find positive results in all three groups yet how can this be? The voice can only be saying one thing, so how can two groups agree they are saying completely different things?

The answer: People hear what they WANT to hear in white noise. I am looking for a link, which I hope to post later, where Daniel Dennett does this live on you tube with an audience. He plays a song backward and people just hear noise. He then puts up what the song is "meant to say" and when people listen again they hear those very words.

When I find it I will post it, it is interesting because I heard the words the second time too. The mind is easily tricked.

NOTE: This is all before you put forward another valid explanation. We broadcast voice all the time and each medium affects another. Such as the white noise on a television screen when nothing is tuned actually is displaying some of the radiation from the big bang. The idea therefore that random recording faintly contain interference noise from voices broadcast from other sources like Radio or Wireless communication is not that far fetched at all.
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:39 AM
 
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Ah no wonder I could not find it, it was Micheal Shermer not Daniel Dennett. The link is here and the part I was talking about is at 09:10 on wards to around 11:20
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:13 AM
 
Location: Florida
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While I do agree that one should not pre-determine the result of evidence, my point is that, in a case like this, an audio file presented on the www hasn't a chance in hell of being examined or tested and is, therefore,a waste of time.
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Old 11-25-2011, 07:27 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,639,628 times
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I would still be willing to openly consider it just in case. You never know what you might hear you did not expect.

However I do agree that if the user in question was actually sitting on "undeniable evidence" it really is not a forum he needs to be sitting on offering to learn how to upload it. He should be getting on a bus and taking it to the experts in the field who actually can study it.

The only "waste of time" I see here however is wasting time believing he has anything of the sort. Given the paltry nature of the excuses made for not presenting it I rather suspect the existence of the tapes in question are as real as the phenomena being discussed. That is: Not at all.
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Old 11-25-2011, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
6,922 posts, read 8,624,456 times
Reputation: 8685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
This sentence is seriously flawed. I am not commenting on whether it is POSSIBLE or not. Anything is possible. The issue is that we are living in a world where countless millions of things are possible. To accept anything you hear merely because it is possible is foolish and your head would be literally full of all kinds of nonsense because there simply is not enough room in the brain to accept all the things that are possible.

No the point is not whether a given idea is possible, the point is whether to think for any reason at all that the possibility actually IS. It is possible there is an invisible pink unicorn behind you right now. Is there any actual reason to think there IS such a thing however? No. It is possible that alien mind eating parasites live on earth and infect only elected politicians and our planet is actually being run by an alien race. Is there any reason to think this actually IS the case however? No.

So yes it is possible EVP is real. Is there any reason on offer, much less from you, to think it actually IS the case however? No. Not an ounce of it. Except for your fantasy/canard that you are sitting on a wealth of world altering evidence that you fail to provide because you are not tech savvy enough and are chronically unable in a world of billions of people to find even one person who IS? I call bull. Total, total bull.
So, What I get from your comments is, despite the fact that you looked at the material in the link I posted, and clicked on the links where Ms. Estep offered actual tape recording sessions, you still don't believe it to be so.
It is just as the other member posted above, even thought taped evidence is there, it could be interpreted any of a million ways as not being real.
Guess you fall into that group.
Obviously nothing offered, or anything one could say, will ever convince you.
Your mind is made up, and that's all there is to it.
Putting my tapes aside, what proof would you need to show you that evp is quite real?
Do you feel that after "listening" to the Estep tapes, they are not real?
Bob.
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Old 11-25-2011, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Florida
21,123 posts, read 22,043,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
Putting my tapes aside, what proof would you need to show you that evp is quite real?
Do you feel that after "listening" to the Estep tapes, they are not real?
Bob.
You weren't addressing me but I will answer this question.
I have asked several times before and have still not gotten an answer.
Do you have any references to any legitimate examinations of EVP?
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