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Old 01-31-2012, 09:29 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Certainly finding a shoe is hardly impressive and I am unclear on what makes you think it is, even though I have heard mention of this story before in a few places.
If you wish to label the story as fiction, so be it, but if you find it credible (and I've read WAAAAAY to many similar stories to dismiss them all as lies) than finding something that the person could not have known but that is nonetheless true adds validity to the story.

It's physiologically impossible to form memories when clinically dead or under general anesthesia, yet people routinely do. That means something.
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Old 01-31-2012, 09:41 AM
 
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I am certainly unaware of ever suggesting the story was fiction and I would challenge you to find and quote where I did so. Having failed I would gladly accept your retraction of the claim.

No I perfectly believe the story is possible, that someone woke up and mentioned the position of a shoe that THEY and others both have no idea where the information came from.

What I reject is the conclusion drawn from this that the explanation therefore has to be supernatural in nature. There are an infinite number of possible explanations such as the patient saw the shoe without realizing it at some point, or someone else did and the patient heard a conversation no one realized they heard.

That is just two of a possible endless list. I urge you strongly to spend some minutes watching the video on open mindedness, specifically the bit about the lampshade which comes early in the video. The problems with the lamp shade anecdote are the same problems you suffer from with the "shoe" story and if you understand why the lamp shade story was problematic you will understand why the "shoe" story is unmoving. Especially when these anecdotes come from uncontrolled situations and controlled studies of any type yield nothing... though we can wait in hope for the Parnia and other studies due this year to see if any thing changes.

A story told by a Rabbi who believes in god during a debate with Christopher Hitchens springs to mind. The Rabbi was talking about having an autistic son who was able to recount conversations that happened many rooms away outside the realm of normal human hearing. The explanation is simply that the human brain "hears" much more than we are consciously aware of as we filter much of it out. The Autistic child lacked such filters.

"Blind Sight" studied by VS Ramachandran is another great example. There are patients clinically blind who can "see". The reason is that the pathway from the eye to the conscious parts of the brain are damaged. The other pathways are not. The patient he focused on in his talk had the remarkable ability to see motion. So if you put a square on a screen he could not see it or could not know it was there. If however you move the square he could tell you with 100% accuracy which direction it moved but he has no idea how or why he knows that.

All of this tells us something we know already which is that we receive much more data in our brains that we are consciously aware of and by pathways we are only now discovering. We see, hear, smell and process much data without realising it. The brain, and the senses are not as simple as simply being "on" and "off" all the time.

So with all this knowledge at our fingertips I see literally no support for the claim that the explanation for these things has to be mystical or supernatural, or that we can make baseless declarations on the impossibility of forming memory while "under" or "dead".

Remember again the point I opened the thread with. They are called "NEAR death experiences" for a reason. The patient did not die and "clinically dead" has different meanings and connotations to "dead".
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
So with all this knowledge at our fingertips I see literally no support for the claim that the explanation for these things has to be mystical or supernatural, or that we can make baseless declarations on the impossibility of forming memory while "under" or "dead".
I didn't get your point; are you saying that people who have NDE have a mystical or supernatural experience?

Are you trying to say that dying is mystical; having a life after death is mystical?

If so, you are a skeptic on the existence of life after death and there may be no convincing evidence to convince you apart from having the experience yourself, and with time it will surely come. But nobody can convince you at the moment, I'm afraid.

I was unsure what sort of research you were after when you first wrote, thinking that you were after papers published in peer reviewed journals. If you were after the evidence to support that there is life after death, there is no hard evidence to support this claim, but there is circumstantial evidence, which you will surely reject.

So, I don't see any point to continue this thread further, especially with you as nobody would be able to provide you with what you are after!
You will have to see it for yourself.
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Old 01-31-2012, 10:57 AM
 
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I didn't mean to imply you were labeling the story as fiction, my point is that unless you (the generic you) are prepared to write off all accounts as pure fiction (and it seems the non-generic you is not) then you must concede that SOMETHING is going on there.

The question then becomes, what is that something. Is it nuerological? Psychological? Or a genuine spiritual experience?

For me, in my extensive studies not only of NDE's, but quantum physics, reincarnation, and a host of other things, I have come to the conclusion that they are genuine spiritual experiences for the most part. Some are not, of course, being just dreams, misinterpretations, or outright fabrications, but there's too many that are too similar to conclude they all fall into this category.

That does not mean I endorse human religion, quite the opposite I disdain human religion, and any similarity between spiritual reality and what any given religion teaches is purely coincidental.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:04 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,649,974 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidneytinhtut View Post
I didn't get your point; are you saying that people who have NDE have a mystical or supernatural experience?
Not sure what I said to give you that impression. I am saying the opposite. I am saying there is not only no reason to think they have had a mystical or magical experience, but that there is much data explaining how their experience is very real and how it can come about naturally at the level of the brain.

And the lack of evidence for these things is not helped by pointless lines like "you wont believe it till you experience it yourself". You either have evidence to substantiate ideas like life after death, or you do not. Lack of evidence is not evidence and simply saying "it is true, you will see" says nothing at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mickiel View Post
I was unsure what sort of research you were after when you first wrote, thinking that you were after papers published in peer reviewed journals.
I am not sure how you can not be sure given I spelled this out very clearly in more than one post on this thread already. Perhaps you have not read the thread before replying.

However I am happy as ever to repeat myself.

Take the "shoe" story for example. We can imagine a multitude of ways the patient could have come by this information. The situation was anecdotal and not controlled.

When we DO control it... nothing happens. We get negative results. No NDEs.

For example there are studies that place things in positions that could only be seen if you really did float above your body... rather than just feeling like you did. Where are the results of people seeing those objects? They are not there.

If they really are floating and not just feeling like they are floating then they would see such objects. A massive red digital readout with a number on it is unmissable yet no one comes back saying "Why is the number 56567 up there is huge unmissable red digital numbers?"

All that is being offered is anecdotes in uncontrolled situations and in all of them we can imagine explanations. In controlled situations we see nothing, nothing at all, to suggest anything at all is happening other than patients "feeling" things that are not happening. Feelings we can artifically reproduce at will.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DentalFloss View Post
I didn't mean to imply you were labeling the story as fiction, my point is that unless you (the generic you) are prepared to write off all accounts as pure fiction (and it seems the non-generic you is not) then you must concede that SOMETHING is going on there.
But I already HAVE said "something" is going on and explained those somethings. It is just not the "something" you want to hear.

We know for example how to stimulate the brain to make people feel like they are outside their own body. The "God Chair" does it. VS Ramachandran does it. We know it can be done and how to make it happen.

So when patients in dire and extreme medical situations feel the same things... why are we suddenly shocked and think it is magical or mystical or supernatural? Why do we need to invent unsubstantiated ideas to explain away something we already understand the mechanisms of?

Simply waving your hands and saying "I have studied some stuff... and I have concluded it is true...." is useless to me yet that is essentially what you just did in the post.
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Old 01-31-2012, 11:28 AM
 
Location: WV and Eastport, ME
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I have heard that the stories that come from NDE are really just hallucinations caused by a lack of oxygen in the brain, but, since I've never had one, I really don't feel qualified to make such a judgement.
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:11 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Simply waving your hands and saying "I have studied some stuff... and I have concluded it is true...." is useless to me yet that is essentially what you just did in the post.
OK, I'm going to try to do this without writing a book.

Quantum physics experiments indicate that reality is not as it appears. The oft-repeated results of the double slit experiment (google is your friend if you don't know what that is) indicate, indeed, that reality as we experience it is an ILLUSION. That does not mean our experiences are a figment of our imagination, they are what they are, but our environment, rather than being solid physical matter, appears to be a probabilistic calculated simulation of solid physical matter.

What does that imply?

Well, for starters, if it's true, our bodies don't actually exist, except as renderings inside the simulation. Our consciousness, on the otherhand DOES exist, which means it does (or at least can) exist outside of the simulation.

It means that whomever or whatever created this simulation did so intelligently and intentionally.

Most of all, it means after our bodies die, we go on to experience something else.

Here is an excellent whitepaper on the topic, should you be inclined to delve further into it: http://brianwhitworth.com/BW-VRT1.pdf
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
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Default "But... but... it did happen, I tell you! It DID! DIDIDID!!!"

Nozz hit on two points. One is that I remember reading about some joint research done last year or so in several hospitals in the Eastern US. Second Nozz-point: I also can't ever find it when I want to, at least not easily. But here's the general synopsis:

Several folks who were bound for rather dangerous and possibly fatal-outcome operations were simply aked if they wanted to participate in a blind NDE test. (they were not told some of it was to be "blind" in design.. that would make them suspicious...)

The patients were told that there was a brightly colored box in an adjacent room, and if they would be so kind as to "fly in" and deternmine what was in that box, and then later report it back, all would be well. They were not to try to ID people within the operating room since of course they may well have subconsciously already memorized such items in that room.

The blind aspect of the test was that there was no box in half the cases, and in half of the remaining cases, the brightly colored box had nothing in it.

No-one, I mean NO-ONE, ever got any of it right. Those who were, by the old death standards, was ever able to even ID the color of the box, except one person who was "allowed" to briefly see the lime-green box being toted into the next room (they thus "reported" both having an NDE and having then seen a bright green box! Imagine that, huh?). no-one ever ID'd the item that may have been placed in that box.

And finally, they were told that, even though they'd had a classical medical episode that used to be classified as true Death, by some new (I think it was in 2008 or so) standards, they were never actually dead if they "came back". That if they had been, by the new standards, dead, they would not have come back from it. The new death standard includes: a lowering of deep body temp, measured over several hours, by at least 7 degrees Celcius (big temp change! Biochemically fatal!); no detectable brain wave activity for over 8 hours, and no reaction of the major organs to direct electro-stimulation (brain, heart, lungs, spine, muscles etc.). In other words, inescapably dead. DEAD.

From that, no-one ever comes back. No glorious return from the dead but with all sorts of interesting tales to tell. Of course, to explain those previous NDEs, researchers have stimulated many parts of an unconscious person's mind, both chemically or by electro-stimulation. When we go under general anesthesia, all sorts of new and interesting biochemical changes can and do occur. The morphine derivatives and methadone, for example, often create vivid hallucinations, revisitations of past experiences, or a sub-conscious recollection of some specific thing unconsciously noticed in a room. There are, however, often mentions of seeing a bright white light. After all, who hasn't ever seen Poltergeist, eh? Talk about pre-hypnotic suggestion, huh? "Go to the Light!", etc. etc.

Thing is, many theistically oriented folks truly WANT to have an NDE, and so it is almost always they who claim to have such experiences. The more atheistic or agnostic? Not so much, if ever. Oddly, the same thing goes for those who rather desperately want for The End Times to happen, and soon!

There's a palpable desire for these events to go forward, since it then proves to these participants what they desperately need to have absolute proof of. Since, after all, there has been no other proof going on anywhere else!

Why is this not surprising?
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Old 01-31-2012, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,577 posts, read 10,792,961 times
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So far as I can see everyone here is merely talking on speculation, nobody knows for sure what really happens in a Near Death Experience and unless you have personally experienced one, you really don't know anything about it....... and even then it's still questionable in the individual's mind...
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