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Old 02-02-2012, 03:00 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,642,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
There is no hell as in Eternal Torment. It is a ludicrous belief that blasphemes the nature of our loving God.
It is always fun to watch people with entirely unsubstantiated beliefs mock the entirely unsubstantiated beliefs of others as being "ludicrous". Yet they have exactly the same amount of substantiation for their idea there is a hell (none) as you have for your idea there is a god (none).

Even funnier then to watch you all battle it out by playing the "I experience it" card. One user things hell is real because that is how they experience it. You think god is real and all loving and has no use for a hell because when you fell asleep one day during meditation and had a dream that is what you "experienced". And each of your experiences are valid to no one except yourself and those that already agree with you. Conversations between you therefore being about as useful as... and having as much hope of an outcome as.... watching quadriplegics box.

As we can see the best retort you can musture against each other is to "bet" they do not actually experience what they experience. This just adds to the comedy when I know just how aggressively you respond with immature invective to anyone who expresses any doubt in the "experience" you claim to have had, yet you practice that same doubt with impunity towards others.

But such are the vagaries of religion in that it pits people with baseless worldviews against each other with no basis to ever evaluate and reconcile those world views. Comical at times, maybe, but massively dangerous in others and we can see in people like you exactly why as you very quickly descend into frustration, anger, invective and lose all sense of maturity and perspective. Explode that to a global view and you see why people like myself work so hard against theistic thought. It is a conversation stopper, a barrier to reason and the evaluation of ideas. Really our species has two options: Conversation or violence and your baseless world views are so divorced from reality as to almost ensure conversation will fail as the above exchange demonstrates.

Despite all my years learning how to better articulate myself and my ideas, I literally can not indict religion as completely as the people espousing it do themselves. If you ever wonder why I keep talking to people like yourself it is simply because of the massive utility to my cause in simply keeping people like you talking.
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:12 AM
 
Location: UK
121 posts, read 147,010 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
Well thank you for at least outing the caliber of argument you are offering here. If you really think that the work of an illusionist is not illusion then all bets are quite literally off as to what you will believe, espouse and why.

The point you willfully miss is that magicians are people who trade in illusion, and they admit this. They do not claim to actually be doing magic. They admit that they are engaged in illusion.

There are two types of magicians; those who use mundane tricks to create illusions and those who made use of beings of parellel existence to create illusions. You only seem to know the former with your limited knowledge.

There are charlatans like Yurri Geller who do on occasion try to claim they are really doing magic with real powers. They are very quickly lambasted by the Magician Community for doing so however and outed by the likes of James Randi and Micheal Shermer.

The boat crew you mention picking him up for example were, he admits himself, part of the act.

But this shows just how poor your quality of evidence is. People in a trade like this openly admit they are engaged in illusion. They are TELLING YOU that it is not "magical" but illusion but you just want to believe it anyway. That is really really poor form, and certainly has no place on a thread where we are trying to discuss actual facts. You have just talked yourself out of being taken seriously in this conversation at all. Willfully.

I have never come across Dynamo admitting that his acts were a part of the trick using illusions. He was asked a few times how he did those acts but he never revealed it as people like yourself would never believe him and would brand him a lunatic.



You appear to be willfully ignoring what I wrote, and also willfully ignoring the dictionary. There is nothing in any definition of "illusion" that requires it to be on land or in a studio. You are just making that up. Illusion can be performed anywhere. Where you get this mad notion that illusion suddenly stops being illusion if it is taken outdoors is beyond me but as I said it is a claim that literally erodes all credibility in anything you now say.

It all also has absolution nothing to do with this thread or the subject of NDEs.
Illusion as defined in Oxford dictionary is as follows:
  • an instance of a wrong or misinterpreted perception of a sensory experience: stripes embellish the surface to create the illusion of various wood-grain textures
  • a deceptive appearance or impression: the illusion of family togetherness
  • a false idea or belief: he had no illusions about the trouble she was in
The fact that Dynamo was in the middle of the Thames was not an illusion. However, you may argue that walking on the Thames is an illusion, which I can accept if you can provide me with a logical and practical explanation, and IF YOU CAN PROVE IT YOURSELF BY REPLICATING IT.

To me I rather think you are deluded with the idea of there is no life after death and this is the only existence. It is not surprising as there have been millions of people like yourself in the history who would not accept parallel existence until they were at their death bed, and was rather late to reconcile with their delusion and live a better life to avoid a woeful existence. I am so sorry for people like yourself wasting a precious existence with such deluded ideas.
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Old 02-02-2012, 04:22 AM
 
Location: UK
121 posts, read 147,010 times
Reputation: 27
[SIZE=3]Here's a case report of an encounter with parellel existence extracted from a peer reviewed journal .[/SIZE]

[SIZE=3]Case reports on NDE in India by Pasricha S & Stevenson I.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] Journal of Nervous & Mental Disease 1986, 174 (3): 165-170[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]The authors reported 16 cases of NDEs that they investigated in India, out of which the following case of mistaken identity and a physical sign left after the NDE is interesting. I have copied the actual text mentioned in this peer reviewed journal for your interest and discussions.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]The Case of Durga Jatav[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]We interviewed Duga Jatav, a man approximately 50 years old, in November 1979 and again 3 months later. About 30 years ago he had been ill for several weeks, suffering from what had been diagnosed as typhoid. When his body ‘became cold’ for couple of hours, his family thought he had died. He revived, however, and on the third day following this he told his family he had been taken to another place by 10 people. He had tried to escape, but they had then cut off his legs at the knees to prevent his escape. He was taken to a place where there were tables and chairs and 40 or 50 people sitting. He recognised no one. They looked at his ‘papers’, saw that his name was not on their list, and said, ‘Why have you brought him here? Take him back.’[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]To this Durga had replied, ‘How can I go back? I don’t have feet.’ He was then shown several pairs of legs, he recognised his own, and they were somehow reattached. He was ten sent back with the instructions not to ‘stretch’ (?bend) his knees so that they could mend. (Durga’s older sister whom we interviewed, corroborated his account of his apparent death and revival.)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Durga’s sister and a neighbour noticed, a few days after he revived, that marks had appeared on his knees; there had previously been no such marks there. These folds, or deep fissures, in the skin on the front of Durga’s knees were still visible in 1979. There was no bleeding or pain in the knees other than the discomfort engendered by Durga’s following the ‘instructions’ to keep his knees in a fixed position. X-ray photographs that we had taken in 1981 showed no abnormality below the surface of the skin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]Durga had not heard of such experiences before his own NDE. He did not see his physical body from other position in space. He said that afterward the experience seemed like a dream; nenertheless, he claimed that it has strengthened his faith in God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]One informant for this case (the headman of the village where Durga lived) said that at the time of Durga’s experience another person of the same name had died in Agra (about 30 km away); however, neither Durga nor his older sister were able to confirm this statement. [/SIZE]
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:05 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,642,469 times
Reputation: 2979
My goodness but how pointlessly pedantic you can be. Yes I know the man was in the middle of the Thames one is denying that. The point is HOW he was capable of being in the middle of the Thames. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think there is anything magical or mystical at work there. It is illusion and nothing more. Whats more people in his line of work TELL you that they are engaged in illusion and nothing more.

So if you choose to believe it is anything else but illusion then so be it, but do not expect anyone to take you seriously or for your points on that basis to carry any credibility.

However again I point out that this has nothing to do with NDEs. If you think there is life after death then so be it, but recognize that this is an unsubstantiated claim. Not accepting unsubstantiated claims is not being deluded. So you can call people "deluded" all you like but it does not make it true. You would be better off putting your energies in learning how to format your posts correctly so people can read them.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:27 AM
 
Location: UK
121 posts, read 147,010 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
My goodness but how pointlessly pedantic you can be. Yes I know the man was in the middle of the Thames one is denying that. The point is HOW he was capable of being in the middle of the Thames. What I am saying is that there is no reason to think there is anything magical or mystical at work there. It is illusion and nothing more. Whats more people in his line of work TELL you that they are engaged in illusion and nothing more.

So if you choose to believe it is anything else but illusion then so be it, but do not expect anyone to take you seriously or for your points on that basis to carry any credibility.

However again I point out that this has nothing to do with NDEs. If you think there is life after death then so be it, but recognize that this is an unsubstantiated claim. Not accepting unsubstantiated claims is not being deluded. So you can call people "deluded" all you like but it does not make it true. You would be better off putting your energies in learning how to format your posts correctly so people can read them.
You miss my point again. If you think it was an illusion I have challenged you to prove it yourself by walking into the Thames, and you chose to ignore this challenge.

NDEs may involve some magic which you continously refused to accept; that's why I have given you another evidence on magic. Deluded persons always think their ideas are real and true, whilst normal persons know their ideas are false.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:31 AM
 
376 posts, read 350,054 times
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A short NDE article published in The Lancet.
http://www.pimvanlommel.nl/files/pub...n%20Lommel.pdf
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:36 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,642,469 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidneytinhtut View Post
You miss my point again. If you think it was an illusion I have challenged you to prove it yourself by walking into the Thames, and you chose to ignore this challenge.
No, it is you who are missing the point. Willfully it seems. The man is a magician. He admits he has a career in illusion. YOU are the one claiming otherwise therefore the onus of proof is on you not me.

With most illusion HOW they do it is obvious. The fascination of illusionists is how well they hide the mechanism. When david copperfield flies for example we know this is done using strings of some sort. The fascination is how effectively he hides those strings.

When a guy walks on water we know he is either walking on something under the water or has found a way to distribute his weight effectively (the same physical mechanism by which snow shoes work or by which people can walk on custard). His skill is in how he HIDES whatever his mechanism is.

I could easily reproduce his trick. That is not in question. Two ropes just under the surface of the water would do it suspended between my starting point and the boat at the end point. I would also walk like he did, like a tightrope walker trying not to fall over. The difference between me and him however is that my mechanism will be very visible and easy to see. I would not be able to hide it as well as he.

Again however the point here is that the person engaged in the trick openly tells you it is a trick. That it is illusion. That is what a magician is, a practitioner of illusion. If you want to claim it is anything but illusion then the onus is on you to evidence that claim, not on me to negate it.

And if the only evidence you have of some mystical nature behind NDEs is to point to admitted illusionists in an attempt to declare magic is real... then you have not only got no point at all but are likely an embarrassment to the people on the thread who think there is very real evidence for it. You are making a true mockery of the conversation and everyone on your side of it. In fact I could not make a better mockery of it if you were to give me your password and let me write your posts for you.
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Old 02-02-2012, 05:51 AM
 
Location: UK
121 posts, read 147,010 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteWings View Post
A short NDE article published in The Lancet.
http://www.pimvanlommel.nl/files/pub...n%20Lommel.pdf
Interesting article; thanks!

Out of 344 near death cases only 62 (18%) had some NDE, but only 41 (12%) had the core experience. They think cerebral anoxia was not the sole answer for having NDEs since most patients who have been clinically dead did not have NDE.

Does it mean there could be another reason for NDEs?
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:01 AM
 
Location: UK
121 posts, read 147,010 times
Reputation: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nozzferrahhtoo View Post
No, it is you who are missing the point. Willfully it seems. The man is a magician. He admits he has a career in illusion. YOU are the one claiming otherwise therefore the onus of proof is on you not me.

You miss the point again; I have emphasised that there are two types of magician, and your limited knowledge in this respect clearly stands.

With most illusion HOW they do it is obvious. The fascination of illusionists is how well they hide the mechanism. When david copperfield flies for example we know this is done using strings of some sort. The fascination is how effectively he hides those strings.

Did he ever fly outdoors in public???

When a guy walks on water we know he is either walking on something under the water or has found a way to distribute his weight effectively (the same physical mechanism by which snow shoes work or by which people can walk on custard). His skill is in how he HIDES whatever his mechanism is.

Very imaginative indeed; just try a tight rope walking in a fast flowing river. Yes, he indeed used a support that you did not know. He did not walk on water by himself.


I could easily reproduce his trick. That is not in question. Two ropes just under the surface of the water would do it suspended between my starting point and the boat at the end point. I would also walk like he did, like a tightrope walker trying not to fall over. The difference between me and him however is that my mechanism will be very visible and easy to see. I would not be able to hide it as well as he.

I'd be fascinated if you could try your tight rope walking in the river.

Again however the point here is that the person engaged in the trick openly tells you it is a trick. That it is illusion. That is what a magician is, a practitioner of illusion. If you want to claim it is anything but illusion then the onus is on you to evidence that claim, not on me to negate it.

Yes, it is an illusion created with magic, not ordinary magic that you knew.

And if the only evidence you have of some mystical nature behind NDEs is to point to admitted illusionists in an attempt to declare magic is real... then you have not only got no point at all but are likely an embarrassment to the people on the thread who think there is very real evidence for it. You are making a true mockery of the conversation and everyone on your side of it. In fact I could not make a better mockery of it if you were to give me your password and let me write your posts for you.
How morky you are!
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Old 02-02-2012, 06:09 AM
 
7,801 posts, read 5,642,469 times
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I am still unsure what relevance being indoors or outdoors has to anything. As are you given you have refused to answer that. Nor was there a fast flowing river... you are just making things up now. He in fact very clear did it when the Thames was slack. In fact plexiglass is a very likely solution.

The point is that it is illusion, and he himself admits to being an illusionist. He is not claiming to actually have any powers to walk on water without the aid of technology. You are. So by all means evidence the claim sometime rather than just reiterating it. I am sure believing in magic makes you happy, but we are dealing in facts and reality here.

Never in my life heard the word morky before, nor can I find it in dictionaries. Did you make it up or is it something from your own language which, clearly, English is not?
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