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Old 07-07-2012, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
8,473 posts, read 10,889,540 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
The book that you reference was written in the 1800's by a guy in his 50's with no scientific background and his works are derived from people who (supposedly) channeled the answers to his questions.
While he may be well known as an author of text books for schools, this does not make him an expert or authority on the subject at hand. Nor does it offer any credit to those he uses to channel the information.
Much has been learned since his book was published. Things change, perceptions and understanding.

I am not agreeing or disagreeing - overall I think that the idea/theory at its roots is mostly on the mark, but how it is presented is a little difficult to swallow, it sounds a little bit like the 'spirits' of Scientology.
What do you offer,other than your opinion, that spirits,and other mediums did not participate in the writing of the book?
Show me, and everyone else your evidence to back up your statement.
I must admit I am a bit vague on "the spirits of Scientology".
Care to enlighten me as to the correlation between the two?
Bob
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Old 07-07-2012, 05:53 PM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 7,645,926 times
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Back up which statement?
I never said that mediums did not participate, just saying that anyone could have said they are mediums/channelers.
Where are their credentials?
It is my nature to not just take someone's word as truth when there is SO much we don't know, as well as many different takes on the what's and whys of life.
As for Scientology - Thetan, Source of Life, Immortal Spiritual Being: Official Church of Scientology Video
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Old 07-07-2012, 07:51 PM
 
2,949 posts, read 5,487,454 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
What do you offer,other than your opinion, that spirits,and other mediums did not participate in the writing of the book?
Show me, and everyone else your evidence to back up your statement.
Bob
What evidence do you offer, other than your opinion, that spirits and other mediums did participate in the writing of the book?
Show me and everyone else your evidence to back up your statement.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn`t. But you offer no proof other than your opinion. So why is it ok with you to offer no solid evidence but you want solid evidence from anyone who disagrees with you?
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Old 07-07-2012, 08:43 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
8,473 posts, read 10,889,540 times
Reputation: 10717
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
What evidence do you offer, other than your opinion, that spirits and other mediums did participate in the writing of the book?
Show me and everyone else your evidence to back up your statement.

Maybe they did, maybe they didn`t. But you offer no proof other than your opinion. So why is it ok with you to offer no solid evidence but you want solid evidence from anyone who disagrees with you?

If you had read the book, you will see the evidence within the first 58 pages.
Those pages deal with the author, the spirits,and mediums used in the formation of the book.
Again I will mention, Alan Kardec is, and was a world renown, and well respected author, and it would be frivolous to think otherwise .
His reputation alone would, and has stood the test of time.
To say one believes his sources are bogus, is insane.
Now as for the link to Scientology, I watched the first three videos and came to a very simple conclusion, rather quickly, regarding the comparison of it, and the spirits' book.
Absolutely none.
The entire philosophies are as different as day and night.
The spirit's book philosophy deals with the spirit as the conduit of all existence in the universe while Scientology deals with the human factor only.
They believe the human body is the all important center of spirituality, which is a rather naive way of thinking.
Bob.
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:28 PM
 
2,949 posts, read 5,487,454 times
Reputation: 1635
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
If you had read the book, you will see the evidence within the first 58 pages.
Those pages deal with the author, the spirits,and mediums used in the formation of the book.
Again I will mention, Alan Kardec is, and was a world renown, and well respected author, and it would be frivolous to think otherwise .
His reputation alone would, and has stood the test of time.
To say one believes his sources are bogus, is insane.
Bob.
So 99% of sleep scientist and other well respected doctors and scientist are insane..ok,,gotcha
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Old 07-07-2012, 11:50 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
8,473 posts, read 10,889,540 times
Reputation: 10717
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
So 99% of sleep scientist and other well respected doctors and scientist are insane..ok,,gotcha

Sleep scientist and doctors are only recording and documenting what is already there ,and what IS there is actions created not by humans , but actions and thoughts of the spirit within the body.
You seem to forget, the human body, or matter as the spirits refer to it, is nothing but a tool used by the spirit.(what part of that do you not understand?)
Nothing, though scientist and doctors would differ, happens within the human body that is not in direct correlation with the spirit.
Scientist and doctors only know what is seen by them, they can never record the actual source.
They can only document the end result.
Due to limitation, set by design,the human factor is unable to know many action, and thoughts of spirits.
The human mind does not have the capacity to know these things.
Were you to ask any one of them the source of dreams, they would answer the subconscious brain is responsible for dreams.
On that point they would be correct, but the source of that subconscious state is what they will never see, or know.
The spirit embarking on nightly journeys ,away from the confines of it's human entrapment is the source of dreams.
Until such time as scientist in the field can come up with the source of dreams, other than subconscious brain activity, I have to delegate my beliefs to the source that says, "We are the source".
True, dreams are of a subconscious mind,but the source of that subconsciousness is the key, and it doesn't lie with doctors and scientist, or their machines.
Now, you could come back and reply, "but they spend millions on research, surely they would not consider anything other than what there research, and findings tell them".
"With all that research, there has to be some validity to their findings".
Their findings are flawed.
They monitor sleep, and know when a subject is dreaming, but they have no physical evidence of the source of the dream,nor will they ever, other than brain waves which are caused by the spirits thoughts, and actions while the human dreams, and as I stated above, their minds, as those of all humans, are incapable of knowing these things.
The human being was purposely designed to not know everything, and if by design, man's machines are there to "take up the slack", that can only be termed a lesson in futility.
For sure, if man were meant to know all, he would, simple as that.

Edit.
I need to clarify something I said above.
Scientist dealing with sleep,and dreams may some day stumble on the source of dreams, but will never know the process involved.
My statements above made it look like I am some sort of superhuman that knows the source, while others are not privy to it.
That was incorrect.
What I meant to imply is, no one, including me, will ever know the process involved, because that is something only the spirits themselves know.
Studying brain waves will never reveal the true process, that is reserved to the spirits only.

Bob.

Last edited by CALGUY; 07-08-2012 at 12:36 AM.. Reason: clarification
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Old 07-08-2012, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 7,645,926 times
Reputation: 6115
Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
To say one believes his sources are bogus, is insane.
Now as for the link to Scientology, I watched the first three videos and came to a very simple conclusion, rather quickly, regarding the comparison of it, and the spirits' book.
Absolutely none.
The entire philosophies are as different as day and night.
I have no clue what information the videos have, I only provided the link for the text.
You are comparing the philosophy of the two groups- where as when I mentioned a simularity, I was simply speaking of just the spirits. Different orders and how they occupy the human body. Very much the same.
I also never said his source is bogus either.
Table rapping is akin to Oujia boards, a tool I happen to use myself, so it would be hypocritical of me to say that the means in which spirits are contacted is bogus.
However- the image I get from some parts of the book is like that of kids cartoons, where the character has a little angle of himself on one shoulder and a little devil of himself on the other and both are trying to get him to do what they are telling him to do. It's taking our actions out of our hands and that does not sit well with me.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
8,473 posts, read 10,889,540 times
Reputation: 10717
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
I have no clue what information the videos have, I only provided the link for the text.
You are comparing the philosophy of the two groups- where as when I mentioned a simularity, I was simply speaking of just the spirits. Different orders and how they occupy the human body. Very much the same.
I also never said his source is bogus either.
Table rapping is akin to Oujia boards, a tool I happen to use myself, so it would be hypocritical of me to say that the means in which spirits are contacted is bogus.
However- the image I get from some parts of the book is like that of kids cartoons, where the character has a little angle of himself on one shoulder and a little devil of himself on the other and both are trying to get him to do what they are telling him to do. It's taking our actions out of our hands and that does not sit well with me.
The last sentence in your post is the one I will address.
The actions you speak of,were never in your hands, but in the hands of the spirit within you.
The spirit within controls EVERYTHING about the human species.
Our thoughts,actions, deeds, movements, they are all controlled by the spirit.
As I have said before,the human body is nothing more than a tool (a conduit if you will) for the spirit.
The body is only there to carry out the functions dictated by the spirit.
To put it into simple terms, here is an example.
You need to get to your job in the morning, and your vehicle is the tool you will use to get there.
You open the door, step in, turn on the ignition, put the vehicle in gear, and you are on your way.
You have used the vehicle as your tool to fulfill your need to arrive at your destination.
Well, the spirit works much in the same way.
Our bodies are used by the spirit in each of us, to fulfill it's destination.
It's destination is to be of absolute purity, and this goal make take thousands of years, and many more re-incarnations, and still it may not achieve the purity it is in search of.
When you think, move around, do task in your daily routine, those actions are carried out by the spirit.
Without the spirit, none of these actions would be present, because you would not exist.
It is human nature to think that we are the ones in control of our lives, and whatever it is,be it thought, or action, we are responsible for it.
That is just not the case.
Another example of this would be;
Let us take you into the board room of a thriving company.
You sit on the board of directors, and the subject of expansion is on the table.
You have a set of ideas, and you put them up for consideration.
The person sitting next to you has a different perspective on your suggestions.
You have thought about expansion long before this board meeting.
You sit there thinking your idea is the best alternative for the company.
How did you arrive at this decision?
How do you know it will be the best for the company in the long run?
Your answer? because you thought about it,pondered it in your mind, and came up with what you think you, yourself came up with.
Wrong, your spirit thought it through, and because it has the ability to see ahead of the present, offered, through your physical body, the expansion plan.
Your plan was approved, and you leave the board room thinking you came up with a pretty dammed good plan,when in fact all you did was supply the means(the conduit) in which to get the plan before the board.
The plan was not your's in the first place, and we all know where the plan originated.

Bob.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
3,751 posts, read 7,645,926 times
Reputation: 6115
You are explaining the dynamics to me as if I do not understand it.
I completely understand what is being said- we have NO control...I got that and I got it from the very beginning.
It does not need to be explained to me, I get it, I just don't agree with it.
Spirits are indeed around us, they do contribute to our lives, however, I do not believe that they are the entities that control us.
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Old 07-08-2012, 12:22 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
8,473 posts, read 10,889,540 times
Reputation: 10717
Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
You are explaining the dynamics to me as if I do not understand it.
I completely understand what is being said- we have NO control...I got that and I got it from the very beginning.
It does not need to be explained to me, I get it, I just don't agree with it.
Spirits are indeed around us, they do contribute to our lives, however, I do not believe that they are the entities that control us.

Ok, so what is your belief?
I always like to hear different points of view.
That is what makes forums like this interesting.
Bob.
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