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Old 07-08-2012, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
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In regard to dreams, we do have dreams with spirit encounters, but they are generally not very often within the majority of the population. Reason being, if a person is not a believer of these spirits, the spirits are less likely to visit. Unless, there is a 'heavy' reason to do so. I would guess in most of those cases, it is the experience that makes people believe.
Then there are 'mundane' dreams, the subconscious mind doing it processing and sorting. These dreams offer aid the waking mind with the issues and situations we face in waking life. These dreams can be quite cryptic, but with understanding of ones own dream symbolism, can be easily deciphered.
A common example of such a dream is the inability to steer or break while driving a car. The dream is relating to something we feel we have no control over. It could be about work, a relationship, or a more complex aspect in life. Other aspects of the dream would be the indicators to what the focus is.
Anxiety dreams are quite common and with good reason, we are society that is in a love/hate relationship with stress.
Then there is astral travel, where the spirit/soul leaves the body and goes on to visit other places be it on earth, through time, or in some other realm. Even though this occurs while we sleep, I would not call it technically a dream.

So- there are three types of dreams; mundane, spirit communication & astral travel, with a sub-type being lucid dreaming.
One can be aware of being in any of these dreaming events.

The statement that says sometimes we don't dream, I don't agree with. But it is common to not remember dreams.
While the waking mind does not recall most dreams, the message is still held within the consciousness and we subconsciously utilize the information.

I come to these beliefs through (near 40 years of) experience first, and my conclusions from those experiences which is later supported through reading many books on the subject. Of the books I have read, not a single one is 100% on the mark of what I believe, but do have little gems that I can fully relate to.
Now I am not saying what I believe is fact, my 'facts' could change provided that some better explination is given.
But the spirits being in full control of us is not a viable explination for me.
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Old 07-08-2012, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
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You have done a remarkable job of explaining your view, and beliefs, and for that I thank you.
Of course you are aware you and are share different views, and that is to be expected.
This just re-enforces the notion that we are all different,and though we are all made from the same cloth so to speak, we all have our individual characteristics.
The same could be said of the spirits.
They are as individual as we humans, and some are close to their bodily entrapment on more than a physical level.
Your view is that spirits are not in control of our thoughts, actions, or dreams, and I would ask,if you believe that, then how do you explain what you refer to as the subconscious state where you feel the bulk of dreams take place?
How does one arrive at that state of subconsciousness?
Why do you dream one particular dream, and not another?
Why do certain people, some of which you have never met, appear in your dreams?
You are of the belief dreams are no more than a reflection of what has gone on in your human existence on a daily basis.
You see something, and like depositing money into an atm, your brain automatically deposits that sighting into memory in the subconscious state you speak of, and while sleeping your brain suddenly, without provocation, brings about this sighting for you to experience once again.
My belief would be, unless that sighting was to be a direct benefit to the enrichment of the spirit, it never would be, in the first place.
Which brings me to this question (and I don't want to get too far off track from the original posting subject)
What do you think the spirits were created for in the first place, and what is there roll in the universe?
Bob.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, MD
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Dreams aren't anything spiritual or paranormal, it's just your mind defragmenting and organizing thoughts. That's why you dream about a weird man you saw on TV, the cat you saw eating a crow and a song you heard earlier. I've had odd dreams about dead people that seem real but I know it's not, it's more wish fulfillment.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:41 PM
 
Location: Ostend,Belgium....
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The brain is always trying to rationalize and figure things out. Especially in sleep mode. Just like in optical illusions, the brain tries to make something out of nothing.
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Old 07-09-2012, 07:19 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhenomenalAJ View Post
Dreams aren't anything spiritual or paranormal, it's just your mind defragmenting and organizing thoughts. That's why you dream about a weird man you saw on TV, the cat you saw eating a crow and a song you heard earlier. I've had odd dreams about dead people that seem real but I know it's not, it's more wish fulfillment.
I agree a lot with what owl said about dreams and what you have said. I believe that spirits can visit us while we sleep and make impressions on our subconscious mind or help us with a problem or issue we are having. But, I think that dreams are mostly just a natural part of brain functioning. just like any other physical organ has a function. The brain is just filing or defragmenting data. Cal mentioned how to explain a dream involving someone you`ve never met before. As I said in an earlier post, you may not have met them or remembering seeing them, but you have probably seen them. They were just someone in the background of your everyday life that you never noticed. Someone you may have glanced at in the mall, in an airport, on the road while driving, on tv, etc. you just didn`t consciously notice the person but your brain recorded their image.

I had a weird dream last night that involved people from my childhood, from a job I had while still a teenager, and people from my last two places of employment. The dream centered around me being a paperboy, which I was almost 30 yrs ago. All of these people in my dream kept changing into other people that I knew from years ago. What does the dream mean? To me nothing. It made no sense at all. I was thinking about work and was on facebook earlier in the day. So all of those images from my friends on FB probably entered my dream about work and my brain attached memories to those people and tried to creat a pattern or make sense of something without the influence or guidance of my conscious mind to put things in perpsective.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
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Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
I agree a lot with what owl said about dreams and what you have said. I believe that spirits can visit us while we sleep and make impressions on our subconscious mind or help us with a problem or issue we are having. But, I think that dreams are mostly just a natural part of brain functioning. just like any other physical organ has a function. The brain is just filing or defragmenting data. Cal mentioned how to explain a dream involving someone you`ve never met before. As I said in an earlier post, you may not have met them or remembering seeing them, but you have probably seen them. They were just someone in the background of your everyday life that you never noticed. Someone you may have glanced at in the mall, in an airport, on the road while driving, on tv, etc. you just didn`t consciously notice the person but your brain recorded their image.

I had a weird dream last night that involved people from my childhood, from a job I had while still a teenager, and people from my last two places of employment. The dream centered around me being a paperboy, which I was almost 30 yrs ago. All of these people in my dream kept changing into other people that I knew from years ago. What does the dream mean? To me nothing. It made no sense at all. I was thinking about work and was on facebook earlier in the day. So all of those images from my friends on FB probably entered my dream about work and my brain attached memories to those people and tried to creat a pattern or make sense of something without the influence or guidance of my conscious mind to put things in perpsective.
I think I need to enlighten you on at least one thought you stated above, and that is the one dealing with the spirits "visiting us".
The spirit does not "visit us", but is within our human existence for as long as we are living.
It never completely disembarks from the body until death.
Now, you talk of the dream you had last night.
You were suddenly surrounded by old friends, and work places.
All that was is, the spirit within you recalling past experiences that it has had.
Remember, the spirit is you, and you are the spirit, for as long as you are alive.
When the spirit wanders as we dream, it is free to go anywhere, and go to any time in it's existence.
Your spirit chose to go back to a time in your's and it's earlier period in life, and that happens in the form of a dream.
As I have said earlier, dreams are the thoughts, and actions of the spirit, and the human body, being the conduit for the spirit, all thoughts, weather in a waking state, or dream, are in direct correlation to the spirit within each of us.
To put it in a much more simple term, in your dream, your spirit was going back to when these thing occurred .
As you live your human existence, the spirit also lives the exact thing, at the exact time.
When you dream, sleep, that is the closest time you will be to death, until your death actually happens.
The spirit uses this time that you are sleeping, to wander.
Perhaps into the future, or the past, that is up to the spirit.
Many people (and I would suspect you as well) put way to much emphasis on the human factor, unaware that the spirit within us is the one calling the shots.
We are like any other tool in the world, with one exception, that being, we can think, act, and in fact, dream, but one needs to remember, those God given traits are there for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is the enrichment of the spirit within each of us.
Bob.
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CALGUY View Post
I think I need to enlighten you on at least one thought you stated above, and that is the one dealing with the spirits "visiting us".
The spirit does not "visit us", but is within our human existence for as long as we are living.
It never completely disembarks from the body until death.
Now, you talk of the dream you had last night.
You were suddenly surrounded by old friends, and work places.
All that was is, the spirit within you recalling past experiences that it has had.
Remember, the spirit is you, and you are the spirit, for as long as you are alive.
When the spirit wanders as we dream, it is free to go anywhere, and go to any time in it's existence.
Your spirit chose to go back to a time in your's and it's earlier period in life, and that happens in the form of a dream.
As I have said earlier, dreams are the thoughts, and actions of the spirit, and the human body, being the conduit for the spirit, all thoughts, weather in a waking state, or dream, are in direct correlation to the spirit within each of us.
To put it in a much more simple term, in your dream, your spirit was going back to when these thing occurred .
As you live your human existence, the spirit also lives the exact thing, at the exact time.
When you dream, sleep, that is the closest time you will be to death, until your death actually happens.
The spirit uses this time that you are sleeping, to wander.
Perhaps into the future, or the past, that is up to the spirit.
Many people (and I would suspect you as well) put way to much emphasis on the human factor, unaware that the spirit within us is the one calling the shots.
We are like any other tool in the world, with one exception, that being, we can think, act, and in fact, dream, but one needs to remember, those God given traits are there for one purpose, and one purpose only, and that is the enrichment of the spirit within each of us.
Bob.
Thanks for enlightening me, Bob. But the dream made absolutely no sense. It was a hodgepodge of events all intermingled between people and events that had no association with each other. To me, if it was me (my spirit) going back in time, then the events would at least make sense. There would at least be some pattern or cohesiveness to the events and people. The actions and the people in the dream would make sense. That`s just one of the reasons why I don`t buy the " it`s our spirits playing around while we sleep theory". Because most ( not all) dreams are nonsensical, patternless, unorganized, chaotic,intermingled pieces of information.

It`s easy to say, oh, it`s our spirits. Because when things are so jumbled and sensless ,we can just pass it off as the spirit reliving stuff that we have no remembrance of. It`s sort of like saying..the bible is the truth. Well, what proof do we have that the bible is true. Because it says so.

I know we will never be able to convince someone who believes spirits are prancing around at night that most dreams are just the physical brain doing it`s job. They want to believe in some supernatural involvment. That makes it interesting. What proof do we have that it`s spirits prancing around at night. Well, I have this book that says it`s true and the the author is a reliable and respected guy that lived over 100 years ago. Well respected people that lived hundreds of years ago believed a lot things. We burned witches at the stake. We thought the earth was flat. We thought people with mental illness were possessed. We thought slavery was acceptable. We thought the Earth was the center of the universe. A lot of learned, well respected leaders thought a lot of stuff. But science has enlightned people over the centuries and will continue to do so.

I believe in an afterlife. I believe in the spirit world. I believe in reincarnation. But I also believe that a lot of things are just physical,ordinary, happenings. I don`t see spirits or supernatural phenomena in everything. I believe God gave us human bodies, put us in this physical world to learn and grow. the bodies we have serve a purpose in the physical world. Our brains have a purpose and dreaming is one of the ways the brain restores itself and stays vital. Like I said before, if you didn`t sleep and dream, you would die. That is another reason for you to consider it just isn`t a spiritual thing happening but a physcial.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
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Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Thanks for enlightening me, Bob. But the dream made absolutely no sense. It was a hodgepodge of events all intermingled between people and events that had no association with each other. To me, if it was me (my spirit) going back in time, then the events would at least make sense. There would at least be some pattern or cohesiveness to the events and people. The actions and the people in the dream would make sense. That`s just one of the reasons why I don`t buy the " it`s our spirits playing around while we sleep theory". Because most ( not all) dreams are nonsensical, patternless, unorganized, chaotic,intermingled pieces of information.

It`s easy to say, oh, it`s our spirits. Because when things are so jumbled and sensless ,we can just pass it off as the spirit reliving stuff that we have no remembrance of. It`s sort of like saying..the bible is the truth. Well, what proof do we have that the bible is true. Because it says so.

I know we will never be able to convince someone who believes spirits are prancing around at night that most dreams are just the physical brain doing it`s job. They want to believe in some supernatural involvment. That makes it interesting. What proof do we have that it`s spirits prancing around at night. Well, I have this book that says it`s true and the the author is a reliable and respected guy that lived over 100 years ago. Well respected people that lived hundreds of years ago believed a lot things. We burned witches at the stake. We thought the earth was flat. We thought people with mental illness were possessed. We thought slavery was acceptable. We thought the Earth was the center of the universe. A lot of learned, well respected leaders thought a lot of stuff. But science has enlightned people over the centuries and will continue to do so.

I believe in an afterlife. I believe in the spirit world. I believe in reincarnation. But I also believe that a lot of things are just physical,ordinary, happenings. I don`t see spirits or supernatural phenomena in everything. I believe God gave us human bodies, put us in this physical world to learn and grow. the bodies we have serve a purpose in the physical world. Our brains have a purpose and dreaming is one of the ways the brain restores itself and stays vital. Like I said before, if you didn`t sleep and dream, you would die. That is another reason for you to consider it just isn`t a spiritual thing happening but a physcial.

I think I can better explain your dreams that you feel are somewhat chaotic.
You claim they are a hodgepodge of many things.
Again, you need to understand the spirit has lived, and had perhaps thousands upon thousands of re-incarnations.
I know as a human being, that is hard to understand, but I believe it is so.
During those many, many years, the spirit is able to recall most, if not all of them.
It is possible that the bits and pieces your subconscious is privy too, actually are the thoughts, and actions of your spirit as it recalls those past existences, and parts of them.
The spirit may (in your dream) recall persons and event that happened earlier in the day, or things that happened three thousand years ago.
You have no control over that.
Bob.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Under the Redwoods
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Tried to make this post earlier but lost signal...it was a nice afternoon at the pond.
But anyway....
I like to play Q&A!

Question - "Your view is that spirits are not in control of our thoughts, actions, or dreams, and I would ask,if you believe that, then how do you explain what you refer to as the subconscious state where you feel the bulk of dreams take place?"

Answer - First, *my perspective is not far from what is found in the book, more similar that not. . .
All dreams originate in the subconscious. As modern humans, we have lost touch with out intuitive, instinctual, pure spiritual selves, our connection to the source, or as I like to call it, the Universe.
Just as AK gave some definitions for the subject at hand, here are some of mine. What are spirits 'out there', is equivalent to our souls in ourselves. Once the vessel, our bodies, wear out and die the soul then becomes spirit. Spirit is what is in the Ether, Soul is the same thing but when in a body.
*Our soul is operational both, when awake and while asleep. Only difference is when we are awake and our thinking logic and some ego of modernness (social programming) gets in the way and takes charge.*
When we sleep, we are relieved (to various degrees depending upon the person) of our modern 'programming'
and enter into the world of Ether. *Our subconscious/soul uses a symbolic language that we understand and because we use cars and ATMs in everyday life, those things appear and have a relative meaning within the bigger picture. It would not make the same impression if we had climbed into a chariot. The mind/soul/subconscious uses these familiar things to help us sort things out and bring closer to our conscious mind the things we need to be aware of and pay attention to. Often we suppress thoughts and feelings and that is unhealthy to our soul/spirit. This is some of what comes out in some dreams.
If we cannot vent or express during our waking times, then dreams take care of 'getting it out'. Sometimes we are not clear about something, we feel odd or upset and know what it's about, but not why. Because the subconscious mind is not effected by logic or doubt (fear), dreams will spell things out, through feelings, metaphors and symbolic imagery. If we pay attention and give it thought, one can find answers within these mundane dreams.
---For example- one dream theme I would have often when my children where young, was being in a public place that was incredibly crowded and I could not find my children, I would be frantic looking for them and felt so lost. This is typical type of theme for any mother who is wanting to protect her children. In my waking moments I was not 'worried' about my children. I did not want to think about the 'what ifs' and any time such thoughts crept forward, I ignored them. My dreams were a way to keep me in touch and not become totally detached by always ignoring the what if types of thoughts that keeps us on our toes.

Question: How does one arrive at that state of subconsciousness?
Subconscious is not a state, it is always at work. The subconscious can be accessed intentionally through meditation or when inoculating dreams. But as I say, it is always at work. Ever have a moment when you did not think about something and just reacted? I'm not talking about something habitual such as tying your shoes or a physical reflex like catching something that fell accidentally.*

Q: 'Why do you dream one particular dream, and not another?'
I'm not sure how to answer this as there is nothing to refer to.
I don't think I could be a good example for a typical dreamer. When *compared to those who have shared their dreams with me, my dreams are not of the norm. Many people dream of everyday familiar settings and people they know and see a lot.*
(however, I did come across someone who dreamed in shapes and stick figures, but being a math, physics, engineer guy, it did not surprise me).
My dreams are very rarely in a familiar location but I have dream environments that I have been to more than once. I hardly ever dream of the people closest to me, it's usually all strangers in my dreams. Occasionally I will dream of someone I know, but they are people of my past who I will probably never ever see in the future.
At best, most of my dreams (excluding most typical anxiety dreams like the lost children dream) can be best described as fantastical. Picture a trio of rats stealing my favorite spoon (I don't have one) and taking off in a RC boat as I chase them swimming like a dolphin or mermaid.... It did wake me up giggling.
The message of the dream being about emotional nourishment through joy.

Q: Why do certain people, some of which you have never met, appear in your dreams?
A: They could be just generic characters to fill the space and set the scene, like extras in a movie. Could be just a face to play a part in your dream that has no other function. I say function because some of the rolls people we know play in our dreams is a reflection of an aspect with ourselves. Parts we like or dislike about these people are part of the dream's meaning.
When we dream of those who have passed on, it may or not be of their spirit essence. For me, I can tell the difference by the way the dream feels. It's both a physical sensation as well as how the dream looks.
When a stranger visits and the dream has that same feeling, it is a spirit visiting. Like the African shaman who can to me one night and communicated with me telepathically while he sat right next to me. In order to communicate he needed to touch me and he put his hand on me and I felt it physically.

Q: You are of the belief dreams are no more than a reflection of what has gone on in your human existence on a daily basis. --*
A: That was not me that said are nothing more than a reflection. A simple playback, no, not at all -as my explanations above show. I don't see the everyday events and settings as just some irrelevant made up, distorted review. Dreams utilize things from our waking life to make a point, to communicate something. Sometimes it's just props, sometimes it is significant, usually significant but to what degree depends upon the amount of focus on the object or task. Like the car with no breaks. If it was a car unfamiliar, the dream would have a different meaning than a car we actually own.

Q: Which brings me to this question (and I don't want to get too far off track from the original posting subject)
What do you think the spirits were created for in the first place, and what is there roll in the universe?
A: That is the ultimate question. 'what is our purpose?' and that, I think is the purpose, to discover it. To learn and grow as spiritual beings and part of that happens in human form.*
And getting right down to it, I totally believe with all my being that ...*
'Love is Our Soul Purpose'*
(quote by anonymous)*
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by OwlKaMyst View Post
Question - "Your view is that spirits are not in control of our thoughts, actions, or dreams, and I would ask,if you believe that, then how do you explain what you refer to as the subconscious state where you feel the bulk of dreams take place?"
I don`t equate all of who I am as my subconscious. I don`t equate my subconscious as my spirit. I am a spiritual being. As a living soul in a physical world, I have a conscious mind and a subconscious mind. One, the conscious mind, helps me to operate and make sense of my physical surroundings. The other, the subconscious mind, stores information (good and bad). It doesn`t decipher what is good or bad, it just stores the data and helps my body act in the physical.

For instance, a person may have a bad habit. They know it isn`t right for them, but they have a hard time breaking the habit. Consciously, they want to stop. They try to stop, but they can`t. They can`t break the habit because their subconscious mind is convinced that it is what they want. Remember, your subconscious mind doesn`t decipher the info it receives as good or bad. It just just stores it. So if you smoke, your subconscious mind is convinced that is what you want to do. If you are someone that seems to fall for the wrong type of mate, eventhough you know they are wrong for you, it is because your subconscious mind believes that is what you want. Eventhough your conscious mind tells you not to do it. You still have the irresistable urge to follow through with behavior that you now isn`t right for you. And we always say, why did I do that again? Why do I always make that same mistake? It requires changing your subconscious mind. Their conscious mind tells them to stop but they can`t until they change their subconsciou mind.

So dreaming is just data from the day or week that is stored in the subconscious mind that is filtered out through the brain at night, because the conscious mind is dormant. So that info comes to the brain at night and gets filtered or filed in the brain. The stuff that the brain doesn`t need gets filtered out. Other stuff gets stored in memory for later use. But all of the info that is kept makes an impression on the subconscious. Then the subconscious mind uses that info and infuences our actions in the conscious state.


Quote:
Question: How does one arrive at that state of subconsciousness?
Subconscious is not a state, it is always at work. The subconscious can be accessed intentionally through meditation or when inoculating dreams. But as I say, it is always at work. Ever have a moment when you did not think about something and just reacted? I'm not talking about something habitual such as tying your shoes or a physical reflex like catching something that fell accidentally.*
I agree, it is always at work. Two parents can be arguing in the kitchen and saying hurtful things. A small child can be in an adjoining room playing, seemingly oblivious to what is being said. But the words and the tension are being absorbed by their subconscious mind. Eventhough they are not aware of it. Overtime, the way their parents act and relate to each other forms an impression on their subconscious of what married people act like. That is why we always take on the traits of our parents ( the good and bad). Eventhough we consciously tell ourselves we are going to do things differently.


Quote:
Q: 'Why do you dream one particular dream, and not another?'
It`s all based on the data your subconscious mind receives and your personality.


Quote:
Q: Why do certain people, some of which you have never met, appear in your dreams?
In my opnion, because our brain recorded their image at an earlier time and it is in our subconscious.

Quote:
Q: You are of the belief dreams are no more than a reflection of what has gone on in your human existence on a daily basis.
That is true. Though I believe that we can receive a message from the spirit world in our sleep. But in my opinion, that is rare.

Quote:
Q: Which brings me to this question (and I don't want to get too far off track from the original posting subject)
What do you think the spirits were created for in the first place, and what is there roll in the universe?
A: That is the ultimate question. 'what is our purpose?' and that, I think is the purpose, to discover it. To learn and grow as spiritual beings and part of that happens in human form.*
And getting right down to it, I totally believe with all my being that ...*
'Love is Our Soul Purpose'*
(quote by anonymous)*
Again, I agree about love and oneness. I beleive when we are reincarnated, the impressions on our spirit or self is brought into the new existence. We are born with certain traits or personalities. Our parents give us our physical traits. But not instinctive personalities. However, our new environment can help shape or change certain things about our personality as new data is received into our subconscious in our new existence. That is why 2 children brought up in the same family can have different personalities. Personalities that are very distinct at an early age. One may be outgoing another shy. One athletic, another artsy.
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