Why there is no such thing as paranormal phenomenae (ghost)
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Speaking as a person who has clair-abilities. I think the OP has a good point. It isn't' that these things are not real. Just that rather than thinking of them as unexplainable it is more a mater of we just have not yet discovered the explanation. People used to th8ink that maggots spontaneously arose from rotten meat and that illnesses were caused by evil spirits too.
We may never understand why some people have unusual abilities or things occur that we consider outside of nature but that does not mean they don't have a reason and that they are not natural. Humans are curious creatures and many are driven to figure out why and what and how. Someday someone may figure out the DNA behind clairsentience etc. That would validate those of us who have those skills. So not a bad thing.
Of course perhaps some prefer the mystery and don't want them explained. And that's okay too.
I prefer to find the truth of things, and I would hope that most everyone feels the same way, though I am not so naïve to believe that everyone actually wants to know the truth.
People don't like to be lied to but many also enjoy a little mystery. You must have a very scientific mind. I have good friends who are scientists and they always have to find the reason behind the thing. For me it is enough that I know that the thing is real, although I am not in any way opposed to having it explained. I just don't need it to be explained for me to be able to accept it. Some people really don't want it to be explained. Its not so much that they don't want to know the trut as that they don't need the details in order to believe.
Speaking as a person who has clair-abilities. I think the OP has a good point. It isn't' that these things are not real. Just that rather than thinking of them as unexplainable it is more a mater of we just have not yet discovered the explanation. People used to th8ink that maggots spontaneously arose from rotten meat and that illnesses were caused by evil spirits too.
We may never understand why some people have unusual abilities or things occur that we consider outside of nature but that does not mean they don't have a reason and that they are not natural. Humans are curious creatures and many are driven to figure out why and what and how. Someday someone may figure out the DNA behind clairsentience etc. That would validate those of us who have those skills. So not a bad thing.
Of course perhaps some prefer the mystery and don't want them explained. And that's okay too.
You're right. The OP does indeed make a perfectly valid point. And you're probably right that some people may prefer to have the sanctity of their paranormal and supernatural views remain tightly locked up in mystery - never to be known. And yet, some of those same folks continue with the thrill of the hunt, posting those very things, as if to somehow validate the existence. That's not very sensible, but that's exactly what began to initally crop up in response to the OP - some people complaining that it has nothing to do with this forum. Evidently, some people don't like having their views challenged rather than pay attention to what was said. How dare orogenicman stir the supernatural pot like that.
For some, it might be better just to hide under the covers and hope the boogyman doesn't find you, or run in the house if any strange lights fly over the night sky. The 'I believe it's true, but I don't want to know why' point of view is little more than a way to chalk it off and stick with the superstition and fear that something dangerous may be lurking in the closet. If it's so fearful, then why should such people bother to discuss it at all? Presumably, part of it is to validate what's going on, but then turn around and say 'I don't wanna know."
I agree that the terms 'supernatural' or 'paranormal' are often misunderstood as meaning 'phenomenon that is forbidden and not meant for human eyes to behold', is akin to the old reasoning 'if man were meant to fly, we'd-a been born with wings'. What it really boils down to are events or phenomena that we don't yet clearly understand enough about to provide absolute answers.
Here's a reasonable example. We know there are particles that can pop in and out of existence. What we don't clearly know is why? Where did they come from? Where do they go? There are some ideas about it, but we don't yet really know for sure. One thought is that space isn't as empty as might be thought and that things can emerge from seemingly nothing and vanish just as quickly. Imagine a pot of water on the stove beginning to boil. After a while, bubbles begin to appear and disappear. Space probably has various fields embedded with conditions that merge and blend enough to cause certain kinds of particles to appear here and there, even if only briefly. There's nothing unnatural about it. We know Gravity exists, but it's not something you can directly see. However, we can see the effects of it.
If I may express an example of my own view, things like ghosts and hauntings for the most part are probably more the result of imagination, lack of readily knowing what else it could be, or pareidolia, so it's easier for some people to default it to 'supernatural' phenomena, rather than to simply say 'I don't know'.
I don't know that DNA alone would necessarily provide any answers about clairvoyance. We do know that certain parts of the brain are more active or less active at certain times for other events though. While some people may choose to believe in such abilities, somehow they usually seem to fail to materialize under controlled conditions. But it is possible that some people might be more sensitive than others at certain times. The problem is that there are an awful lot of publicity-seeking money-hungry frauds around that seem to get the most attention which makes it difficult to want to even bother with conducting controlled tests. Some testing tends to be slanted and biased in order to prove the existence of paranormal phenomena. That's not very scientific. Science attempts to rule things out in order to get to the cause.
Anyway, I agree that some with views supporting paranormal phenomena tend to think that it just ain't natural rather than to understand that there's just no clear explanation yet. I may not agree with some of your views shadowfax, but props to you for being reasonable instead of reaching for a torch to light the fires.
People don't like to be lied to but many also enjoy a little mystery. You must have a very scientific mind. I have good friends who are scientists and they always have to find the reason behind the thing. For me it is enough that I know that the thing is real, although I am not in any way opposed to having it explained. I just don't need it to be explained for me to be able to accept it. Some people really don't want it to be explained. Its not so much that they don't want to know the trut as that they don't need the details in order to believe.
I can accept that even though I don't agree with it. But I think if you ask your scientist friends, they will tell you that there are plenty of mysteries in this world, and in fact, they are likely to tell you that that is what drives them as scientists; to uncover those mysteries and try to explain them. That is how science progresses. That intense curiosity about the world and how it works is how our civilization progresses and improves upon itself.
Anyway, I agree that some with views supporting paranormal phenomena tend to think that it just ain't natural rather than to understand that there's just no clear explanation yet. I may not agree with some of your views shadowfax, but props to you for being reasonable instead of reaching for a torch to light the fires.
My views are not a fixed thing. They are open to change when a more reasonable explanation thought pattern etc presents itself. I think being reasonable is an important first step to growth. After all how can you possibly grow as a person if you are not open to reason an willing to give up old thought patterns for new ones when logic dictates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by orogenicman
I can accept that even though I don't agree with it. But I think if you ask your scientist friends, they will tell you that there are plenty of mysteries in this world, and in fact, they are likely to tell you that that is what drives them as scientists; to uncover those mysteries and try to explain them. That is how science progresses. That intense curiosity about the world and how it works is how our civilization progresses and improves upon itself.
You are not telling me anything I don't already know. My Scientist friends and I have had many discussions about such subjects. Of course they have said almost exactly what you have posted above. I would not expect anything else. And they are comfortable accepting me ad my own thoughts as well. We really don't differ all that much in our views. It is part of why I enjoy talking to them so much.
No, I didn't. But you can use the condescending tone if it boosts your ego.
The point is you quoted something stupid (the pan in the oven burns, the cake does not) to make your point, instead of using your own words. I used to humor to point out: yes, the cake will burn you too.
No one is going to try and open a closed mind. A discussion on the inexplicable means there is no scientific explanation AT THIS POINT. Isn't that what the last paragraph of your quote states? We may not be able to explain it now, but MAYBE we will be able to later? Isn't that in your OP?
Science never stops learning. Yet you have already drawn a conclusion as to what exists and what doesn't. Sounds like ontology.
There is science. And there is phenomena which science cannot explain.
BTW, it is a good discussion. I remember having a mentor who was a PhD in Philosophy. Wow. The conversations we had were mind-boggling.
Last edited by _redbird_; 11-03-2013 at 02:47 PM..
My views are not a fixed thing. They are open to change when a more reasonable explanation thought pattern etc presents itself. I think being reasonable is an important first step to growth. After all how can you possibly grow as a person if you are not open to reason an willing to give up old thought patterns for new ones when logic dictates?
Sorry, I probably wasn't clear enough. The first sentence was related to the usual say-nothing comments by hard-core paranormalists cheer leading squad, not to you. You seem to be much more open, which is a good thing for anybody, considering paranormal/supernatural phenomena by the typical popular definitions implies such things tend to be unexplainable without a bunch of mumbo-jumbo nonsense that's nothing more than wild speculation and assumptions.
You did however suggest that you are "a person who hasclair-abilities." I took that to mean clairvoyant. I don't know you, so at best I'd have to say maybe, but I'm more inclined to be skeptical about it and with good reason. On the other hand, perhaps you meant something different?
No, I didn't. But you can use the condescending tone if it boosts your ego.
The point is you quoted something stupid (the pan in the oven burns, the cake does not) to make your point, instead of using your own words. I used to humor to point out: yes, the cake will burn you too.
No one is going to try and open a closed mind. A discussion on the inexplicable means there is no scientific explanation AT THIS POINT. Isn't that what the last paragraph of your quote states? We may not be able to explain it now, but MAYBE we will be able to later? Isn't that in your OP?
Science never stops learning. Yet you have already drawn a conclusion as to what exists and what doesn't. Sounds like ontology.
There is science. And there is phenomena which science cannot explain.
BTW, it is a good discussion. I remember having a mentor who was a PhD in Philosophy. Wow. The conversations we had were mind-boggling.
The point, redbird, is that a low heat conductivity of coals is the right explanation for fire walking, not some mystical supernatural explanation. It is rather easily repeatable, verifiable, and falsifiable via the scientific method.
The point is you quoted something stupid (the pan in the oven burns, the cake does not) to make your point, instead of using your own words. I used to humor to point out: yes, the cake will burn you too.
If the cake burns, then the only thing it'd be good for is to toss out in the trash and get a new oven.
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Some people really don't want it to be explained. Its not so much that they don't want to know the trut as that they don't need the details in order to believe.
