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Old 08-27-2016, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,170 posts, read 3,825,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Nothing has been found?? People have not given up on them. There is a HUGE advantage to influencing the minds of citizens. Religious groups and governments do monetize and influence their subjects. Or ... perhaps you had not noticed.
Not only have I noticed, I brought it up. But they do not need demons or mental powers to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
How can you say that nothing has been found when there is a whole industry both in religion and in government (and also in business) where the influence of people's minds needs to be manipulated in order to get them to do what is needed.
Nothing supernatural has been found.


People are shockingly easy to manipulate with boring propaganda techniques.


But I am glad you brought this up. The psychological aspects of how to manipulate people ARE well documented. They CONTINUE to research this. There is a whole arm of the marketing industry built on this.


Here let me, unlike you, bring some information to the table ocpaul20:


How Stores Manipulate Your Senses So You Spend More Money


How Retailers Encourage Impulse Buys - Store Layouts & Psychological Tactics


These are just two articles I found within seconds from MAINSTREAM sources that just show this in a very shallow way.


So ocpaul20, please respond to this, I will using your own standards that you have posted in the past accept your silence as failure. Your words, not mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
Shopping psychology, voting psychology, and winning the hearts and minds of groups of people is a large part of winning the desired outcome.
OK, so where are the paranormal or mind control techniques in all of this ocpaul20? Why are they not using those? All of the mental tricks to get you to vote or buy are well documented.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ocpaul20 View Post
So, you would have us believe that nothing has been found?? Haha, open your eyes and see the world we live in.
ocpaul20, I have been asking you for what has been found for months and you have yet to give specific mainstream examples. You post pictures that you get from NASA and say they prove something that the scientists who actually helped build and design the equipment say is wrong.
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Old 08-27-2016, 08:51 AM
 
4,527 posts, read 5,596,450 times
Reputation: 3983
ANYONE who professes to be a mental health professional that thinks there is an external evil force that is inside their patient is violating the trust we have in them.----as Quoted by old guard


this is offensive to those in the profession !we respond to these patients within the realm of standard care and do NOT let our opinions influence their medical treatment
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:31 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,081 posts, read 26,299,141 times
Reputation: 18120
I
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post


As for some of the non scientific accounts mentioned in this thread, where is the real documentation? I would find it out of character for a very large organization that has been around hundreds of years, existed almost worldwide under various forms of governments and cultures to not keep documentation on this. I would also find it out of character for them to not share information about this one thing.

Not from what I can tell. The whole story seemed to be fluff to me. What was documented in the original article? It has shockingly few details. He is at work on a book about demonic possession in the United States. Which I assume is a commercial venture.
What organizations and governments?

A copy of the Drs book mentioned in the article ( when its published) would help clarify question of details; but you won't.

There is a book mentioned earlier by Dr Peck.
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Old 08-27-2016, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
6,211 posts, read 4,879,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Guard View Post
I was responding about mental health professionals seeing evil. I find it hard to believe that at least some psychiatrists would not document this evil, especially if it is some external force, and look for a way to help their patients. Write a paper, seek others with similar cases and pool find out what works and does not work. This is how we learn how to cure people.

ANYONE who professes to be a mental health professional that thinks there is an external evil force that is inside their patient is violating the trust we have in them.
Working with clients involves diagnosing their conditions, and helping them to identify things like coping strategies for alleviating symptoms and "trigger" mechanisms in the environment. In extreme cases where a client is so disturbed that he/she can't do the work that talk therapy requires, he/she will be referred to a psychiatrist for evaluation and prescription of meds. The symptoms typically described for possession would be an example of an extreme case that would be referred out. The diagnosis in most of these cases would be Dissociative Identity Disorder -- and that (if it truly exists) appears to be related to physical and/or sexual abuse as a child. The child learns to split off one or more additional personalities, supposedly, to deal with the trauma by walling it off.

Whether or not the clinician feels there's evil present in such cases or an external force is an example of countertransference: the feelings that the client stirs up in the clinician. For example, I've found talking to some clients boring or irritating, and my supervisor pointed out to me when I was in training that this is of interest because chances are if I find the person irritating, he/she is having that effect on other people too. As a clinician, you learn to observe your own reactions to a client and use those reactions in your work with them. Reading your own subjective reactions as a sign that there's some objective external force at work in a client is unprofessional. They indicate that the client creates the impression FOR YOU that there's some external force present, or evil. There's no test for the presence of a demon or "evil" in someone -- at least not in psychology.
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Old 08-27-2016, 11:33 AM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,081 posts, read 26,299,141 times
Reputation: 18120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Reading your own subjective reactions as a sign that there's some objective external force at work in a client is unprofessional. They indicate that the client creates the impression FOR YOU that there's some external force present, or evil. There's no test for the presence of a demon or "evil" in someone -- at least not in psychology.
A clinician also understands where a professional lines drawn with those 'other' impressions; we can assume it accounts for lack of reports.

Only a few have gone out on a limb; mainly as case studies and not the treating physician.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:23 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
6,211 posts, read 4,879,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
A clinician also understands where a professional lines drawn with those 'other' impressions; we can assume it accounts for lack of reports.

Only a few have gone out on a limb; mainly as case studies and not the treating physician.
Clinicians are supposed to operate within the bounds of their competency, though there are certainly plenty of unethical clinicians out there. All clinicians are bound by a code of ethics -- all codes are similar, though there are detail differences based on the nature of their licensure and certification.

If I encountered a client that had symptoms of DID or "possession", I'd be bound ethically to refer him/her out. I don't have the training or experience to deal with DID, and the penalties for violating one's profession's code of ethics are severe. Unfortunately, not all clinicians are equally trained - or equally ethical. It would certainly be unethical to tell someone or their family that they had something "evil" in them or to attempt some sort of exorcism.

I'd refer out to someone with experience working with dissociative disorders, and if there appeared to be a spiritual component to the suffering (e.g., client or family refers to the demonic or possession), I'd refer the family and the client out to a pastoral counselor in their faith tradition who would be prepared to offer support to them congruent with their beliefs.
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Old 08-27-2016, 12:37 PM
 
Location: 39 20' 59"N / 75 30' 53"W
16,081 posts, read 26,299,141 times
Reputation: 18120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasily View Post
Clinicians are supposed to operate within the bounds of their competency, though there are certainly plenty of unethical clinicians out there. All clinicians are bound by a code of ethics -- all codes are similar, though there are detail differences based on the nature of their licensure and certification.

If I encountered a client that had symptoms of DID or "possession", I'd be bound ethically to refer him/her out. I don't have the training or experience to deal with DID, and the penalties for violating one's profession's code of ethics are severe. Unfortunately, not all clinicians are equally trained - or equally ethical. It would certainly be unethical to tell someone or their family that they had something "evil" in them or to attempt some sort of exorcism.

I'd refer out to someone with experience working with dissociative disorders, and if there appeared to be a spiritual component to the suffering (e.g., client or family refers to the demonic or possession), I'd refer the family and the client out to a pastoral counselor in their faith tradition who would be prepared to offer support to them congruent with their beliefs.
I get how clinincians go about assessments.

You've completely ignorned what I posted.
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Old 08-27-2016, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
6,211 posts, read 4,879,218 times
Reputation: 12074
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
I get how clinincians go about assessments.

You've completely ignorned what I posted.
And now I'm going to "ignorn" everything. Thank God for the ignore file.
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Old 08-27-2016, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,170 posts, read 3,825,674 times
Reputation: 6331
Quote:
Originally Posted by auntieannie68 View Post
ANYONE who professes to be a mental health professional that thinks there is an external evil force that is inside their patient is violating the trust we have in them.----as Quoted by old guard


this is offensive to those in the profession !we respond to these patients within the realm of standard care and do NOT let our opinions influence their medical treatment
If you seriously think they are "possessed" by some external force why are you not documenting this to learn how to remove it?
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Old 08-27-2016, 04:45 PM
 
Location: Falls Church, Fairfax County
5,170 posts, read 3,825,674 times
Reputation: 6331
Quote:
Originally Posted by virgode View Post
I

What organizations and governments?

A copy of the Drs book mentioned in the article ( when its published) would help clarify question of details; but you won't.

There is a book mentioned earlier by Dr Peck.
TallysMom asked us to take religion out of it so I am not going to speak about the organizations. It really does not matter though. An ethical organization has nothing to hide when it comes to curing people. Unethical ones do.


As for the book, I obviously cannot talk about it. But we can talk about the article as it is available to both of us. What specifics did you find in the article?




Thank you Vasily and Virgode. I think you have made my point that a case would be escalated at which time it would be documented.


As this happened more there would be more articles in medical journals and by now we would have something concrete. But we do not.
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